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[Imp]

Hey, 4mask, those you're sure are not evil, or seem sure of, like Magma.  If you're interested/willing, explaining why you see whichever folks as towny or as null is valuable to my thinking too.  It's also useful in general for evaluating how you think, so if someone is interested in considering and moving their vote, it can't hurt you.

I appreciate your reads, and I appreciate them regardless of if you flip or not.

This wording, by the way:

Good afternoon.

Y'all are gonna kill me regardless so I'm just gonna ignore y'all and solve for a while so you'll have a legacy to go off of.

I'm not trying to stop your solving at all.  But the wording you use, it's almost like you're saying you're solving and making a legacy because you're about to die, and like you wouldn't if you were more sure you were gonna live.

You also mention the isoing (of at least Oliverz, but you make it sound like most isoing of anyone) as being painful.  I wonder what about mafia brings you joy, and how you like to play and scumhunt.

Thanks for your help.

Answering this in a separate post for my own sanity, post caps be damned.

Let's see, people I think are town:
Magma I'm not, like, 100% on being town and could be a weird wolf counterpart to my role (stealing things from the living rather than the dead) but seems to be one of the only people with their head screwed on so I'm fine with having him around and posting.
You I tinfoiled back and forth on but while I don't think the way you played your peek on me was townie it's not actually out of character with what I've seen of you so far and the rest has been mostly townie. You also fall into the same category as magma, and the wolves probably did try and kill you unless the team is exactly you/vermillion/+1. Yes it could be multiball but I'm not playing like it's multiball unless we have evidence.
Juicebox has generally been townie, and I know he's telling the truth about his N2 action.
Fallacy I'm now leaning towards down on after a quick reread.
Those are the only four people I think are, like, townie right now. The rest of my list was determined by AP not being aligned with Oliver since you don't fruit vend a kill target and not being convinced that Oliver specifically calls out Wolfkey like that if they're wolf buddies. Looking at the way Oliver treated CM though it could happen so I'd revise to say if Oliver is a wolf the third wolf is in Max/TM/Wolfkey

Re: the second part, it's not that I wouldn't have solved if I didn't think I was 100% dying but if I thought there was a chance I live the day I would have invested time and energy into making that happen and trying to push through a wolf rather than diving into heavy analysis for my legacy. Better a dead wolf than dead town. But since I'm dying anyway no point wasting energy on that.

You're reading a little too much into my comment about ISOing being painful, I genuinely do enjoy playing mafia both for the social aspect as well as (for town) the desperate race to solve before the clock runs out and (for wolves) the joy of using my perfect knowledge to send the town running this way and that. When I say pain it's not, like, super deep or I genuinely dislike the game or whatever, it's just that not being able to press one button and pull up every post a player made in the game for review is a big loss of convenience and means I have to take longer to accomplish the same effect.

Appreciated.

You have I think 18 posts left before EoD, then you get the new set (total 50, have to be spread out no more than 25 in any 1 24 hour period, but new day is new day, if I understand right, even if we skip night between I guess?) if you're alive for the next day.

So feel free I think to make you-sized posts, whatever those are, whatever you have to say.  I sleep soon then can MAYBE post 1-2 times before work, then whatever I have left I can use EoD (like more than 10, I'll be more careful about the count if I get close to using that many.)

FoU, I'm listening to you.  I'm also pretty darn vague about who I might inspect and in what order.

Good iso on Oliverz and Fallacy but I dont understand why I would be scum if Oliverz is scum.

I would really like the/any link between CM and Oliverz discussed clearly.  I didn't catch one either.  However, here's my thoughts about CM and Wolfkey as possible partners and odds of the other being evil if the first be evil.

"IF CM is evil, the odds are high that Wolfkey is also evil and partnered.  I think this because Wolfkey started D3 trying to figure out who claimed what inspects, then stated a perfect pattern to cover for CM's claims; if we find out CM is evil consider if it makes sense to flip Wolfkey for that.

IF Wolfkey is evil, think carefully.  Wolfkey may have been trying to protect someone ELSE from inspects, I finally revealed I inspected a not-their partner, then maybe partner+Wolfkey decided I was too sus of Wolfkey, better make CM look sus to help hide the partner and confuse.  Could be CM connection still, but I'm not surprised if Wolfkey intended to protect someone ELSE then flipped to look like protecting CM to hide real partner and maybe slip past looking sus."

This isn't a way of thinking I feel confident about, I'm still trying to learn to see patterns, not noise, so interested in discussion, plus this has been pretty heavy on my attention recently.

[FallacyofUrist]

FoU, I'm listening to you.  I'm also pretty darn vague about who I might inspect and in what order.

Well, if Max was telling the truth about the next Night being skipped, it's irrelevant at this point. if he's lying, well, then the choice is obvious, isn't it?

(But really in such a case you want to decide semi-randomly so scum can't predict your obvious choice. It's the same metric I'll be going by - revealing one of Max's buddies works just as well as revealing Max himself, because he'll be driven to try and defend them.)

[4maskwolf]

The only thing that makes me hesitate on FoU is that if I'm right and Oliver/CM/+1 is the wolf team these start of day posts look atrocious.

Crystalizedmire, if you had a kill, would you use it on me or Fallacy? And can you please explain your choice?

Fallacy is always a little suspicious to me regardless of alignment so Im not really sure about their alignment. I also want to be more lenient with them. So if I had a kill, I would kill you.

snip 4mask note: snipped by Fallacy not me

You say little, but your taste is not rotten. I do believe I agree with your read of CrystalizedMire - at least for now.

Combine these with Oliver's only interactions with Fallacy being two philosophical rambles on fear and a never followed up on "Fallacy may be distracting from the push on Magma" and you get a series of interactions that look like a bunch of wolves softly poking/clearing each other in plausibly deniable ways.

[4maskwolf]

EBWOP: Oliver's only interactions with Fallacy D1

[4maskwolf]

I'm not going to do a full ISO dump on CM because I don't have time or energy right now but I'm going to pick out the ones that stand out to me.

Spoiler: CMposting (click to show/hide)

Crystalizedmire, if you had a kill, would you use it on me or Fallacy? And can you please explain your choice?

Fallacy is always a little suspicious to me regardless of alignment so Im not really sure about their alignment. I also want to be more lenient with them. So if I had a kill, I would kill you.

See my previous post for why this catches my eye now. Amusingly this (or more accurately, Magma's response to it seeming sketchy) was the reason I initially had CM as a town lean.

magmamater: is there any reason why youre not sharing your top maf pick?
And is the player you think is maf, juicebox?

CM was not the only person to get antsy in the thread about the secret wolf pick but it's still notable.

AP and Vermillion: What are your current reads?

I believe you should be able to see my reads right above your post, CM.
Speaking of, you're the person I forgot.
CM seems fairly content to lie low this game, but has more information out there than half of the people here. Unsure, but leaning townie currently.

I read the readlist, and thought someone else wrote it. I hadnt had the time to post since im vacationing in a different timezone than to what im used to.
And also because a lot of things im about to say is already said.
Magma mater: You want me to shut up because you think Im scum but you cant build a proper case against me because I dont post a lot. What do you want me to do? Wanting scum to shut up is worse for town imo since you cant investigate who their partner is. For the record, im town and youre being evasive with questions.
I could see Fallacy and Imp being teamed. Maximum spin and Fallacy too. My reasoning is that chats are closed during daytime and they need to communicate with eachother inthread.

I don't have much opinion on this post in general but if this is a wolf this is probably a good look for Fallacy. Also continued concern with MM's mafia picks, and specifically if she's on it.

Imp: sorry for the confusion. What I neant by "I thought someone else wrote it" was that I skimmed over Vermillionskies username
Magma Mater: I couldve sworn somewhere that you said that I was mafia.

Confirmed here that she did think MM thought she was a wolf and responded accordingly.

On to D3 posts

I was unable to perform actions on n1 and n2. Did anyone else experience something similar to this?

Claims unable to perform action which is a classic wolf out for not doing things that might be confirmable.

That's weird, because I targeted you N1, and saw you visit Oliverz

I targeted magma mater n1 and Oliverz n2.
I chose to steal abilities on both nights and both nights my abilities remained unchanged.
Oliverz: how many abilities do you have?

Counterclaims with Juicebox whose role I'm inclined to believe.

That's weird, because I targeted you N1, and saw you visit Oliverz

I targeted magma mater n1 and Oliverz n2.
I chose to steal abilities on both nights and both nights my abilities remained unchanged.
Oliverz: how many abilities do you have?

juicebox is saying you visited Oliverz n1, not me.

And I am sayinh that I got redirected or at least I implied that.

Even if she did target Oliverz twice on a redirect (which I doubt) nothing about the way Oliverz has played today has indicated he's immune to ability theft, so the claim remains nonsense.

Readslist:
Town
Imp - obv town - Helpful as always though I find her posts quite verbose
Vermillionskies - Confirmed town? - confirmed town if I understand correctly, I dont think I absorbed the information enough though
Tricmagic - Town vibe - I think they are trying to help and I sort of trust their judgement on Maximum Spin
Fallacy of Urist - Scumishly town - They're paranoid at maximum Spin but I think they're genuinely paranoid as town. Still, they emit a scumish vibe.
Maximum Spin - Scumishly town - I find their odd silence a little scummy but I trust Tricmagic's judgement and I dont think we can do anything about it.
Magma Mater - townish null - I find their playstyle more agravating rather than  scumish. There are some posts which feel like they're trying to help town.
Wolfkey - newbish null - their play is reasonable for a newbie and I get it. In my first mafia game I found it hard jumping into the conversation too.
Oliverz - obv scum - value their abilities much more than they value town. Not only that, they straight up think I am lying about my actions and refused to elaborate. Said my role was unclear despite it being very clear. Said I knew magma mater's role(I did not know).
4mask wolf - obv scum - investigated as scum and only claimed to be miller after the investigation. Voted on Oliverz wagon in an obvious attempt to save themself.
Mafia

Dear Magma, im happy you interacted with my post, although you didn't show any interest for my perspective, Which is quite saddening yet not unforeseeable.

Dear Max, thank You for the clarification

Please, somebody, explain to me how to Iso on this site.
Also, how am i on the theme of post caps? I feel like i post a medium amount of content, which however is by far not as compressed and tightly packed into posts as Imp does it...

I tend not to concern myself with the perspective of mafia LOL

Wether you like it or not, trying to see the perspective of someone you think is scum is quite helpful for town.
Thanks for answering my question, Imp.
Ninjad: I still think maskwolf is scum
Good iso on Oliverz and Fallacy but I dont understand why I would be scum if Oliverz is scum.

The primary thing that stands out to me on this readlist is MM null. MM has made a lot of posts with a lot of content, null is literally not something I can gahtom associating with the slot.

I went back because I remembered discussion of a bus and saw MM walking through how the actions went down, so the thoughts I have on the claim can be disregarded, I'm keeping them for the sake of completeness though.
CM has very little going for her independently, the role she's claiming seems to be a more hostile version of MM's role which feels wolfy. Other than that she kind of just... doesn't have anything going on? If Vermillion wasn't claiming two blocks I'd say this was the one trying to carry the mafiakill and eliminate it without a second thought. I'll get back to this thought in a second.

After reading I'm less convinced of an Oliverz/CM scumteam, they went at each other pretty hard from minute one today. I wouldn't fully rule it out, it could be wolves in a bad spot trying to bus each other, but less likely.

One thing that reading CM and parsing the mech brought to mind was something I've been mulling over for a while: Vermillion's claimed role. I'm genuinely struggling to understand how that role exists in the state it's claimed in. Bulletproof bodyguard is already a horrifically overtuned combo due to its follow-the-cop potential, which, if Vermillion and Imp's claims are true, is exactly what happened this game. Bulletproof bodyguard who is aware when people try to NK is even more absurd, because it massively reduces night ambiguity in the town's favor. And bulletproof bodyguard with an entire extra action to read the night results of dead players is just... does that role exist? That seems several times as power as my own role and sufficient to win the game for town on its own just by existing, to the point where I'm increasingly skeptical it's actually Vermillion's real role. Especially since the wolves don't seem to have a strongman kill as they failed to kill twice.

Normally I'd relegate that to the back of my mind since Vermillion has otherwise been townie but after CM got essentially blocked once and actually blocked another time I'm genuinely starting to wonder if that claims isn't just cover for a doubly-blocked (and essentially outed) wolf.

CM's action priority also makes zero sense. She claims she tried to steal actions from Magma (who she has consistently had as "annoying, but null/not a wolf") and Oliverz (who I'm genuinely not sure she mentioned D1 and only went after after her actions supposedly failed). Rather than the only person she said she had a scumlean on D1, AnimePigeon. You know, the sensible, obvious person to target if you think they're the wolfiest in the game since you deny the wolves abilities.

So I guess what I'm saying is that right now I have basically two scumworlds. One is Oliverz with two of Wolf/Max/TM. Although I'm increasingly not sure how that wolf world pans out, though I imagine FoU likes it. The other is Vermillion/CM/+1, where the +1 I lean towards is AnimePigeon who didn't even appear on her most recent readslist (interestinly, neither did juicebox, though I'm not sure if that means anything).

I guess there's a wild card world where Vermillion is telling the truth and the wolf team is CM/Wolfkey/+1 with wolfkey legitimately bussing CM with MM N1 (messing up Juice's inspect) while CM failed to kill Imp -> Vermillion and then claimed roleblock for N2 to cover for CM failing to kill Vermillion again. ALthough this relies on one specific interpretation of Imp's mech that I don't think we actually know which way it would go, though I could be wrong. If there was daychat I'd say this was the most likely but as is I'm not sure if Wolfkey comes up with that on the spot to cover CM.

Alright that got way longer and ramblier than I meant it to my brain just seized on something and I kept following the trail, that's it for me for tonight.

[4maskwolf]

And yes I do remember that Vermillion was peeked town by Imp.

I started the game as a miller so I wouldn't be surprised if the wolves had a godfather.

[Imp]

Yeah.  If Vermillion's a godfather, somehow there's still no kills, and I struggle to see why a killing evil team would want to not kill; if Verm's not blocking the kills then someone else IS or kills are not what evil's doing.

To me the obvious answer is Godfather cult; I fear cults.  But I'm not converted (you guys would have to check to confirm that, but I don't need to; and I know Verm inspects town as of N2) so what is the cult doing while carefully convincing me and the rest of us NK are being stopped?

So that seems past unlikely to me.  Just like I can't resolve a miller, I can't resolve a GF, reading the play I'm okay.

Y'all don't know much of my role either.  It's obvious to some I give 1-shots of some sort, and inspect.  Oh, and people who target me, a bunch of stuff happens and I get told everyone who targets me every time and I haven't said everything.  I've got this crazy complex role; I'm not surprised if/that Verm does too, or many but apparently not all of you do.

TricMagic for sure mixes very simple roles and super complex ones in the same game, maybe Elephant Parade does too, no idea.

But we know Mater's role can wipe other roles out, apparently multiple times, fast or slow based on how they cooperate or not.  If 'vote' and 'parity' are considered abilities, 'might as well be dead but able to talk in thread', no idea how that works or if it is more limited than that.

And all this Verm defense does exactly nothing against an arsonist.  There's other weaknesses too.

I think whatever evil we face likely is balanced to take the whole of town.  If all our amazing known high power folks are all pro-town, then whatever evil's got as a whole surely is in balance.  Maybe evil's split in teams competing, maybe not.

I think an evil or good 'ability eraser' is plausible and can help balance some power out for BOTH sides no matter Mater's alignment (because mistakes can be made, and/or redirects or similar affect targeting in a painful way maybe is possible, even if Mater's evil and knows who his team are.  I think an evil arsonist is a great answer to help deal with a good like Vermilion, especially if it doesn't have to die to ignite.

Scary game scary game scary game!  Night all.

[Maximum Spin]

Sorry,  4mask, the truth is, I even want to seriously consider that you were wrongly accused, but I am just too burned out by Fallacy's squawking. If it's a strategy to try to get me to stop paying attention to the game so I don't clock scum, it's a good one, except for the part where I'm going to vote him next and never bother to move it. Almost certainly not moving before EOD today either unless something serious comes up.

[Magma Mater]

If there is an arsonist, then Vermilion is likely to be mafia covering for it. Although I'm not sure what her long-term plan is in this case, keep claiming that she's blocking kills? Hopefully we'd get suspicious by day five or so with no scum kills.

Another possibility is that Vermilion is 3rd party which checks as town, and wins if she blocks a certain number of kills.

The explanations, imo, ordered from most to least likely:
1. Vermilion isn't sharing something about her role, and those kills she ate are going to come back to bite her later.
2. Elephant Parade made a mistake and designed a broken role.
3. Vermilion is a third-party with a win condition related to blocking kills.
4. Vermilion is godfather mafia covering for a mafia arsonist.
5. Vermilion is godfather mafia covering for a bulletproof Crystalizedmire, they tried to kill me n1 but were redirected to Crystalizedmire, then Crystalizedmire's kill failed n2 due to being blocked.
6. The scumteam is exactly Vermilion, Imp, and Oliverz hilariously all clearing each other and hoping nobody asks why they are all alive in lylo.
7. Elephant Parade is a sadist, designed a game with a mafia arsonist and a serial killer, then put an OP protective role in solely to mess with the SK, and the SK chose bad kill targets.
8. Something else?

[4maskwolf]

Sorry,  4mask, the truth is, I even want to seriously consider that you were wrongly accused, but I am just too burned out by Fallacy's squawking. If it's a strategy to try to get me to stop paying attention to the game so I don't clock scum, it's a good one, except for the part where I'm going to vote him next and never bother to move it. Almost certainly not moving before EOD today either unless something serious comes up.

Remember this post after I flip this is hella wolfy.

[Maximum Spin]

I mean, I still think you're probably just scum.

[TricMagic]

Burning out is a real threat honestly.
Magma, the some of the ideas you posted is the equivalent of crazylands. More likely someone is capable of disabling the role. Or some insane godfather-figure like Vermilion counter-suggested.

[Magma Mater]

Burning out is a real threat honestly.
Magma, the some of the ideas you posted is the equivalent of crazylands. More likely someone is capable of disabling the role. Or some insane godfather-figure like Vermilion counter-suggested.

The fact that Vermilion blocked the kill twice puts the possibility of, "Mafia have a disabling role, they just kinda forgot to use it on the claimed protective role twice, and tried to kill her claimed target twice," in super-crazylands. Other explanations are still more likely than mafia severely misplaying imo.

[TricMagic]

I mean, not like they would have noticed given it was two nights in a row. Take a gamble to get Imp off the board.
And your disable would... Well it's obviously convuluted. As a question, in your first post today you said Max knew the correct play. What exactly was that play you alluded to?

[Magma Mater]

I mean, not like they would have noticed given it was two nights in a row. Take a gamble to get Imp off the board.
And your disable would... Well it's obviously convuluted. As a question, in your first post today you said Max knew the correct play. What exactly was that play you alluded to?

To give me his expended one-shot ability.