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Author Topic: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY  (Read 62928 times)

Elephant Parade

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2265 on: February 12, 2024, 12:24:25 pm »

It would be cool if Slow and Mutation were adjacent, or at least closer, to allow for growth-type roles. Also, I just had an idea for a role that would've worked perfectly with the old grid, grr.
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Imp

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2266 on: February 12, 2024, 12:25:53 pm »

In this layout, to avoid red spheres you have to take fruit, hats, spheres, or mimic.

I believe Mass effect - redirection - necromancy is also possible.  In fact, I submit that with the role 'antithetical' - and I negotiate to end the game D1 with a me-alone-win!

Mass-Effect: Your abilities have multiple targets or game-wide effects.
Redirection: You can change the reliability of other player's targets (e.g. bus/redirect/randomise)
Necromancy: Your power involves the dead (e.g. mediums, resurrection, graverobbery, ghouls)

Antithetical means being in direct opposition to something. For example, eating a large T-bone steak is antithetical to a vegetarian's beliefs.

Every time a player posts, they have a chance to die.  Every time a player dies, another player has a chance to die.  The flaw, maybe this doesn't mean I win.  Rawr!

I'm kidding.  If I was serious about questions/roles like this I probably wouldn't post it openly.  Also... since win does Imp want all players dead?

But...  I can kinda see this!  And it is a no-red-spheres choice that lacks fruit, hats, spheres, or mimic!
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TricMagic

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2267 on: February 12, 2024, 12:28:23 pm »

For NQT to review. And make quips on.

Doris "DOR-15" Bowler
Kill > Blowback > Necromancy > Cascade > Slow > Hats > Second Wincon > Distributed

Both before and after clicking the link. Speculation, then possible roles~
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Maximum Spin

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2268 on: February 12, 2024, 12:36:07 pm »

Also, while I understand that the effective-one-shottedness of New Sketch Idea is a natural result of Flux, it being my only normal action felt really underpowered. There are niche scenarios where it could be really useful, like trying to draw kill actions and making them stop being kills and possibly become gifts, but... it's not really that good an ability on any strategic level, it's just "a cool gimmick".
I think one sticking point here for you and Web is in how I implemented (flux), in that you could have this whole other power from N2 onwards that may or may not be useful... but you had limited way to know how useful it might have been ahead of time, so it's harder to think strategically at all. Now, if I'm not in a listening mood, I can say players with (flux) literally ask for this, get over it. But on the other hand, with Imp's very expansive power, I implemented a large degree of fluxiness without sacrificing all strategic elements. Definitely something to learn from here, that even if players say they want a role that can change from one day to the next, they usually don't only want that. I think in all of these case, giving a way a few extra tools to round out these roles would have helped smooth over the experience.
In my case, it's not really about not knowing what the new ability would do as such, but that an ability I can use once before it completely overwrites itself with new spheres I didn't ask for isn't fun for me. As written, it doesn't even stay in flux, since the ability would lose the flux sphere. An ability that would keep evolving within its generally same field of existence - sort of like I fakeclaimed to explain my fake action on Fallacy not existing - or one I had multiple copies of so I could build a repertoire of changed actions over time would be more toward what I expected. I didn't read what anyone else had, but based on the claims during the game, it seems like Imp's role was also much closer to what I had in mind. I fully expected to have to adapt to new powers over time, but you just gave me a role that self-immolates.
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Imp

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2269 on: February 12, 2024, 12:49:24 pm »

Also, while I understand that the effective-one-shottedness of New Sketch Idea is a natural result of Flux, it being my only normal action felt really underpowered. There are niche scenarios where it could be really useful, like trying to draw kill actions and making them stop being kills and possibly become gifts, but... it's not really that good an ability on any strategic level, it's just "a cool gimmick".
I think one sticking point here for you and Web is in how I implemented (flux), in that you could have this whole other power from N2 onwards that may or may not be useful... but you had limited way to know how useful it might have been ahead of time, so it's harder to think strategically at all. Now, if I'm not in a listening mood, I can say players with (flux) literally ask for this, get over it. But on the other hand, with Imp's very expansive power, I implemented a large degree of fluxiness without sacrificing all strategic elements. Definitely something to learn from here, that even if players say they want a role that can change from one day to the next, they usually don't only want that. I think in all of these case, giving a way a few extra tools to round out these roles would have helped smooth over the experience.
In my case, it's not really about not knowing what the new ability would do as such, but that an ability I can use once before it completely overwrites itself with new spheres I didn't ask for isn't fun for me. As written, it doesn't even stay in flux, since the ability would lose the flux sphere. An ability that would keep evolving within its generally same field of existence - sort of like I fakeclaimed to explain my fake action on Fallacy not existing - or one I had multiple copies of so I could build a repertoire of changed actions over time would be more toward what I expected. I didn't read what anyone else had, but based on the claims during the game, it seems like Imp's role was also much closer to what I had in mind. I fully expected to have to adapt to new powers over time, but you just gave me a role that self-immolates.

A role that self-immolates....

Okay.  Maybe you told nqt how you wanted your role and spheres to be interpreted, and you told him something different!

Only you and he knows that.

This appears to be what you requested for sure:

Role: The game where the r[u/o]les are made up and the points don't matter.

Spheres: Mutation -> Flux -> Cascade -> Over-powered -> Slow -> Improvement

Okay.  If you didn't ask him for anything else or tell him anything specific, here's how I would interpret it:

You want comedy, reference to Whose Line is it Anyway.  That's pure flux, even who the host is changes on a dime.  Nobody knows what is going on.  Nobody can predict what comes next or how it comes.

You specifically don't want rules or roles to matter.

Plus you directly embrace mutation, flux, cascade, over-powered, slow, and improvement.

The only thing not saying 'totally randomize me and everyone else throughout in every intense massive but not fast way possible' is the improvement.  So the trend will be 'towards better'.

You asked to have a self-and-other-immolating role and spheres, as I read it.

No idea how nqt reads it.

If you wanted it interpreted a specific way, gotta tell the person who is gonna interpret it, otherwise you just hope they think like you do, and maybe you get what you want.
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notquitethere

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2270 on: February 12, 2024, 01:20:42 pm »

It would be cool if Slow and Mutation were adjacent, or at least closer, to allow for growth-type roles.
Good idea!

I believe Mass effect - redirection - necromancy is also possible.  In fact, I submit that with the role 'antithetical' - and I negotiate to end the game D1 with a me-alone-win!
I'll break up that line of blues as well, good spot.

Doris "DOR-15" Bowler
Kill > Blowback > Necromancy > Cascade > Slow > Hats > Second Wincon > Distributed
I have considered allowing four blue spheres, or maybe 3, +1 if you have 2+ flaws maybe. Don't want to make it too complicated but do want to offer interesting options.

I fully expected to have to adapt to new powers over time, but you just gave me a role that self-immolates.
Reasonable point, there's a big difference between a constantly moving power and a power that shifts from one state to another previously unknown state.



Quarque on discord puts forward an argument to just keeping the charm of the original layout (though still renaming Dud to Niche). Also tempting! The original web is a more pleasing visual arrangement.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2271 on: February 12, 2024, 01:25:44 pm »

[long]

Wait, DID I take slow and actually forget that?

Well, regardless.

Yeah, I asked for Whose Line Is It Anyway and got a button that changes the channel. Hey, I was watching that!

No, I didn't ask notquitethere for anything specific. I don't like doing that; I want to be surprised. And I didn't complain about my role for the entire game, but now that it's over I'm giving my honest feedback.

NQT, re: the new grid: I can't really make any set of spheres I would be particularly interested in playing out of that. Granted, it's supposed to be a tradeoff, so it's arguable whether that's a problem, but previously there were combinations (like the one I picked) where even the red spheres were interesting choices for me. I think it's just sort of too thematically distributed, so adjacent spheres don't feel like they fit together well anymore for the most part.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 01:32:06 pm by Maximum Spin »
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Imp

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2272 on: February 12, 2024, 01:30:15 pm »

I believe Mass effect - redirection - necromancy is also possible.  In fact, I submit that with the role 'antithetical' - and I negotiate to end the game D1 with a me-alone-win!
I'll break up that line of blues as well, good spot.

Your image also shows two independent lines connecting cascade and redirection.

I totally wanna use that.  Separate path, we can backtrack, right?  :D

Cascade-redirection-cascade-redirection-SUPER

Whatever I redirectingly cascade, it keeps going and going in some super redirectional way!

(Yes, I know that's 'breaking the rule can't take something twice.  Unless it was on purpose intended to be seen and allowed for the player(s) that notice and request it!  Or else choose to joke as they inform about the inconsistency)
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Imp

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2273 on: February 12, 2024, 01:43:14 pm »

Cascade-redirection-cascade-redirection-SUPER

Whatever I redirectingly cascade, it keeps going and going in some super redirectional way!

The role is some sort of pinball machine game, or pro-level player.  I'd research it deeply before submitting.

I'd negotiate for a 'free' second wincon kinda situation, because it fit the spheres and role that well.  I need to achieve a specific combo of things that redirectingly cascade to either lose or win.  If I lose, I gotta get someone to refill my shots, or out of luck.  If I 'win' that's my second wincon, a very hard to achieve one that can be super convoluted...

Fine.  You made far longer loops possible.  I fear only some reds. 

redirection - cascade - blowback - limitation - counter - distributed - convolution - niche - selfless - slow - cascade - redirection - mass effect

If I can achieve the insane combos required of my pinball-like actions affecting so many folks then everyone, alive or dead, actually wins the game.  If I don't rack up the right combos, I don't refill my shot and need help or it's 'other-game-over' for me.  Players I 'ricochet' off of may not like it, could do all kinds of stuff, as I set up for the 'big win'.

That's not antithetical to me at all!
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notquitethere

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2274 on: February 12, 2024, 01:50:53 pm »

NQT, re: the new grid: I can't really make any set of spheres I would be particularly interested in playing out of that. Granted, it's supposed to be a tradeoff, so it's arguable whether that's a problem, but previously there were combinations (like the one I picked) where even the red spheres were interesting choices for me. I think it's just sort of too thematically distributed, so adjacent spheres don't feel like they fit together well anymore for the most part.
Yes, I think you're right, it feels too cluttered with the lines too.



Looking at two visions, one an even-more-adjusted V2:



Or a mildly tweaked V1:



Keeping with more-or-less the original might be better!

If I do keep the original, more-or-less, I'd clarify in the rule text that Overpowered would get you something like variety/speed/mass-effect or some other boost effect; suspicious can include other unwanted effects like allowing others to mimic your powers for free; slow & niche doesn't mean your whole role is nerfed N1.
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Elephant Parade

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2275 on: February 12, 2024, 02:04:29 pm »

V1.1 lets me use my idea, so it works for me.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2276 on: February 12, 2024, 02:04:50 pm »

Yeah, I feel like I could make cool ideas with both of these now. I think the 'v2' is fine, really, although I'm not totally sure why "hats" and "fruit" are dark.
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Imp

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2277 on: February 12, 2024, 02:12:09 pm »

Yes, I think you're right, it feels too cluttered with the lines too.

Would it be hard for you to color the lines distinctly?  And would this be worse for anyone if it's not harder for you to do?

Red lines between red-red spheres;
Blue lines between blue-blue spheres;
Purple lines between red-blue spheres?

My mind kind of sees it like this, and this is how I consider what spheres to pick.  I can just percieve it this way, but maybe it helps others to see it and build the roads.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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webadict

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2278 on: February 12, 2024, 03:37:57 pm »

[long]

Wait, DID I take slow and actually forget that?

Well, regardless.

Yeah, I asked for Whose Line Is It Anyway and got a button that changes the channel. Hey, I was watching that!

No, I didn't ask notquitethere for anything specific. I don't like doing that; I want to be surprised. And I didn't complain about my role for the entire game, but now that it's over I'm giving my honest feedback.

NQT, re: the new grid: I can't really make any set of spheres I would be particularly interested in playing out of that. Granted, it's supposed to be a tradeoff, so it's arguable whether that's a problem, but previously there were combinations (like the one I picked) where even the red spheres were interesting choices for me. I think it's just sort of too thematically distributed, so adjacent spheres don't feel like they fit together well anymore for the most part.
Yeah, I agree with Max on this one.  Max and I got a single Ability, and when it changes, that's a huge unknown.  There's no fallback strategy and little idea on how that change affects us in the long run.  Flux changing an action feels fine, but Flux was changing everything for us because we only had our one Action.  It's more like...  I wish I could have something in reserve in case I get a bad Emerald (also I got 6 hidden Abilities, I'd like a refund.)

I didn't specifically ask for anything because I don't want to limit design space or influence roles beyond a base inspiration.  I wanted Emeralds to hand out, but I'm not gonna ask for it because I kinda want to see what NQT comes up with on his own.
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Crystalizedmire

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Re: NQT's Choose-Your-Own-Spheres - -D3 - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY
« Reply #2279 on: February 12, 2024, 03:51:53 pm »

V1.1 lets me use my idea, so it works for me.
I agree with elephant parade. 1.1v also lets me use my idea.
Also, how does self preservation and selfless work together?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 03:57:12 pm by Crystalizedmire »
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