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[notquitethere]

In response to player demand, days will be 48 hours long from D3 onward, and weekends will count for half time.

Wait, who asked for this? Can I ask for not-this?

I'm always going to err on not changing things up, so if any player would rather we keep long days, we can keep long days.

[Imp]

Confirm I have never been able to do anything about items and probably never will, so this one is staying.

As far as I know (Nothing about MS's abilities) items are abilities, they just can pass around.  Do you know if you specifically do not affect spheres on item abilities?  If so, that's nice to know.  In part I'd wanted to suggest maybe Toony check the kill sphere N2, which can confirm if it disappears before or after he cops (I don't particularly care if he shares with the class, but that's useful info to know for hunters and huntees), and also potentially if my taking an item out of play happens before or after he cops, which I don't have to know (he has at least 2 ways to share without sharing with everyone, if that's a concern).  I expected to myself check if my remove from play happens before or after your alteration, but if that expressly leaves items alone, nothing to check there.

I remain committed to avoiding using, allowing, causing, or triggering kills while I believe that Page remains in play and being used in a pro-town way.  Whatever I do with that or any kill item should it come into my hands, it won't get stolen from me, and I will not allow it to kill while I understand that Page is doing what it should in someone else's hands.

CM, I'm sure your ears perk up.  It won't hurt you to steal from me if you choose, but you may find the results surprising and probably not to your goal.  But if I trust you, I'm very likely later (not N2) to give you stuff, as well as offer to trade you stuff.

Although I do have one now with Elephant's Town Hall ability.

I wonder if the one that NJW got has a theft ability, since that's the other 'I used this' ability between CM and EP, and CM got hers through theft, so hers is likely real.  I wonder if Toony's counts as a 'fake', I don't know anything about fake items except the roleflip.

[EuchreJack]

Friendly mod reminder that if players aren't hammering they're encouraged to take a break over the weekend as it counts for 0 hours.

Five days is too long for a single day of mafia, so either give yourself some time off or end the day through a hammer.

points up.

Max or Jack, who are we lynching? Get your votes in now! (Cause we need 5 to lynch and are at 2 each.)

Well, that is my cue to vote Maximum Spin

Question. Euchrejack would have died if Fallacy died right? And then revived I'm guessing?

No.
Fallacy's link to me was one-way. If I died, on the second time Fallacy would die, from what I understand of Fallacy's posting.
If Fallacy died, nothing would have happened to me.

Wow, is that the end of the thread? I guess a lot of that was basically filler. I guess I can post now, although I keep feeling like I forgot something, over and OVER again, it's very annoying.

Yes Max, you forgot that I asked you about your thought process that lead you to narrow down suspects and conclude that I was the one you felt was most likely scum.

Like Max, are you alright? Maybe you should ask for a replacement and go to the hospital.

And Jack hasn't cared about this game, including Webadict getting lynched on D1.

I could spend my day making a case against Jack. looks at the number of pages.

It would be the definition of a wall, but I could. Just that it would also be the definition of mining too deep. A lot of my evidence is likely to be circumstancal and emotion-based.

It's only fair considering how emotional Jack has been.

Well, fuck you Toony and your double-standard.
How exactly can I both "not care" and be "emotional"?

I pushed hard for Web's survival at end of Day 1, and was shocked when he flipped mafia. I was VERY emotional end of Day 1, and Web used that.
Part of my reason for inviting YOU to the Jackchat was the realization that your viewpoint was the one I needed going into Day 2.
But hey, maybe you'll be dead tomorrow, and I won't have to put up with your bullshit anymore.

Imp: I'm not that worried about it. I don't read him as an SK and if he kills someone for poorly-explained reasons then we can just lynch him. If THAT doesn't work, then we either accept that an unlynchable SK/multikilling scum would be kind of stupid or lynch him again, I guess.

K.

EJ, I accept it as being NAI if you induct the consenting EP (he already asked) into your chat.  You induct anyone else and I think that's anti-town.

Do you commit to this action tonight, to induct EP into your chat?  Everyone knowing and laughing that it may not be your only action?

Counter-offer: If Max is voted, I will commit to this. If I am voted, I'm shooting Toony.

[Imp]

Counter-offer: If Max is voted, I will commit to this. If I am voted, I'm shooting Toony.

What about if anyone else not-you is voted?

[EuchreJack]

Counter-offer: If Max is voted, I will commit to this. If I am voted, I'm shooting Toony.

What about if anyone else not-you is voted?

A fair question.

At this point, I think I can say that if anyone other than Max is voted, then I'll shoot Toony.

[Imp]

I'm really concerned about NJW2000's shifty attitude regarding that Page.  I can be wrong, sure.  I could have been wrong about web, I'm town.  But I read deep anti-town focus, and it concerns and bugs me.

I'm glad for NJW to have more time to discuss, explain, and ease those concerns.  But he's a very low poster, most of his town-cred with me came from possible very pro town with secrets play -

Read me in Max's Supernormal for how I treat shifty town, how I treated nqt in that game.  I left him totally alone, defended him, and he kept doing pro-town stuff, even with low posts.

I 100% was and kinda still am prepared to give NJW the same benefit and acceptance.  Do townie stuff, earn townie rewards.  He was extremely high on my town list, and lost it all with a set of scummy things D2, match by 'that doesn't look great in combo D1 either' and matched by my weak read of the NJW/web interactions D1.  I'm not good at reading player/player yet.  But dang, the set of choices regarding second wincon handling, the multiple conflicting claims about ideas how to handle the Page and the apple, I wish I had more meta understanding of NJW, maybe I go read a few games, probably a good idea.

I would love for NJW to actually be pro-town.  I was confident of this until I saw the waffling and the wincon stuff, that wincon claim feels deeply false to me.  Nothing else NJW has said feels like a lie - that does.  Especially the later part of the claim, the reasons for why to say it here and now.  That feels deeply fake to me.  Does not feel like the rest of NJW's communication style.  The Page handling stuff feels like manipulation/scum trying to shift for better options 'you don't really mean you think I'm gonna hold this, no no and you let that apple go too'.

Maybe that can get cleared up.  But based on all I've read from the very low-posting NJW, it's actually quite anti-town in drive and intent.

I kinda think we have more to discuss, in particular what else Max should do if we do remove NJW.  That's the Page - if he has it and didn't give it to someone hiding it, and I think he's an anti-town who wants to take us all out.  So if no page, do we remove kills?  I kinda think this should maybe be discussed.

I hope we do what is likely to hurt anti-town the most, if we can figure that out.

If we can't figure that out ... I dunno.  Looking over the spheres I don't have a suggestion other than kill.  I personally don't want to be changed much if at all, and kill won't affect me (maybe affect that gun, that's fine with me).  Is anyone unhappy with some part of their role and wants something else to do, until they change again in some crazy way?  This game seems to have a lot of ways to change things.

At this point, I think I can say that if anyone other than Max is voted, then I'll shoot Toony.

Well, if NJW is elim and flips scum, my sus of Toony increases, but isn't sure.  Hope we have more time before the hammer for everyone to talk and think.

If we elim Max, then kills don't go away.  So I don't think if we elim anyone else BUT Max that you can actually complete that kill unless Max agrees it's the right call.

Even if NJW flips scum, I'm still not sure about Toony.  I can see Toony being innocent even there.  NJW's lie-feel about the second wincon stuff is my main actual sus of Toony, + low level of involvement D2.  Everyone who fought to save web shows some signs of that.

Happy talking everyone!

[Maximum Spin]

I'm always going to err on not changing things up, so if any player would rather we keep long days, we can keep long days.

I think 48hr days is fine, but I really liked weekends not counting, rather than counting for half.

Yes Max, you forgot that I asked you about your thought process that lead you to narrow down suspects and conclude that I was the one you felt was most likely scum.

Like Max, are you alright? Maybe you should ask for a replacement and go to the hospital.

I didn't "forget" that, I said that if you actually wanted to ask serious, non-stupid questions, we could discuss them later. That implies I'm not going to go back and respond to anything you said before, because I want a NEW discussion.
But I'll treat this as if you're asking it afresh. I didn't "narrow down" suspects, I ordered them. Except for the fact the fact that I don't believe Imp or CrystalizedMire would have bussed webadict like that - although, in theory, either could be SKs/mafia-allies/otherwise bad but not teamed with webadict, I guess - the process is one of deciding which player I think is playing worst, both in terms of the game itself and in terms of that player's usual meta. I gave what I think are pretty clear reads and reasoning for all players before. I also think your current harping is pretty scummy, but I'm not sure that YOU wouldn't do it as town because, to be frank, you can be kind of obnoxious. Anyway, most importantly of all, I don't even see you as the worst player right this second, and I was in the middle/more like the start of a post about that when I decided to catch up and wrote this.

So just, like, cool your jets.

I haven't read the subsequent back-and-forth that seems to be about what Jack will or won't do if I take his kills away, just skimmed it while scrolling up, so if any of that changes anything you're just going to have to wait.

[Maximum Spin]

As far as I know (Nothing about MS's abilities) items are abilities, they just can pass around.  Do you know if you specifically do not affect spheres on item abilities?  If so, that's nice to know.

My abilities specifically say they have no impact on items. Sorry, I accidentally forgot to paste this into that last post.

[Maximum Spin]

So in order to try to accomplish something useful, I set myself to the task of asking: What's the deal with NJW2000, anyway?

I didn't specifically go through looking for posts to link, but I have a couple, like this one where NJW promises to help web any way he can, and joins web in following my vote on Quarque, which web comments on afterward.
In subsequent posts, he interacts with web in a kind of vaguely antagonistic-but-not-really way, asks Quarque for apples a lot, almost correctly describes web's emerald ability (in spoiler), gives a weak push on Toony to match web's pull, but asks for what we now know is the Bible page anyway even though his vote is on ToonyMan at that point (why? because web wants to pocket Toony and not kill him n1, I imagine), then asks for it harder, but reiterates that he'd love an apple too, please and thanks, while also voting Imp for trying to get useful information... then kind of sets up ToonyMan as suspicious for later, especially saying to blame him if NJW fails to "take care of" the mafiakill, but votes Fallacy instead, for... no discernible reason? For not being great at mafia, I guess?
The next few posts are boring, a little rolefishing, a little smokescreening about the whole Bible page thing (oh, you mean I can't prevent the mafiakill tonight, what a gosh-darned shame), I quickly start to lose interest in doing this.
Luckily, NJW2000 doesn't even show up on most pages, isn't that funny? I remember the first Armed Forces Mafia (at least the first one I was in) where notquitethere and NJW2000, the mafia, hung out in the background the whole time and let town argue.
He really likes the idea of lynching both me and Crystal d1. I can't imagine why.
To make a long story short, basically, he jumps around a lot, getting opportunistically onto any old lynch of town players, but doesn't join the webadict wagon until the last minute, where he ties the vote, then unvotes - maybe after confirming with NQT that that wouldn't save web, whom we now know had no vote-affecting abilities? Presumably, he would have known that already as a teammate, but I can believe that he was telling the truth, at least partially, in saying he wasn't yet sure what a tie would do. I spent more time voting webadict D1 than NJW2000 did.

I can easily imagine what webadict would be saying in scumchat at that final point: Something along the lines of "go ahead and vote me, it's a done deal and you need to look good tomorrow". I certainly would have if it were me, although I know that's WIFOM nobody wants to hear from me.

At the time, when I thought webadict would flip town, I townread him for staying till the very end, but now I think it was more manipulative than anything.

Anyway, so much for d1, and you all know what proceeds on d2: Immediately decides to blame me for not voting for the guy he also didn't vote for until the last possible second when it didn't actually matter anyway, but throws a little shade on random other players like ToonyMan and Fallacy along the way, waffles a whole hell of a lot about the Bible page thing, tries to get control of the only (I think? I admit I'm not paying the best attention) known protection ability away from Imp... et cetera.

In conclusion, vote NJW2000. Also don't ever expect me to do a rundown on someone's posts ever again now that I remember why I never do that.

Was really hoping someone would post before I finished so I didn't have to triple-post, too. :|

[Maximum Spin]

Hold on, that puts NJW2000 at L-2, right? I don't really think that's a huge deal but unvote just so nobody flips out about hammers.

[EuchreJack]

@Maximum Spin: As one of the smarter players, maybe you can explain something to me that has been bugging me?
NJW has the bible page.
The bible page directs the first kill to the holder of the page.
We know from Night 1 that if the bible page moves, the mafia can kill whomever they want.
NJW was asked by Imp to give up the bible page.
NJW adamantly refuses to give up the bible page.

How is NJW mafia?

[EuchreJack]

I am specifically directing the above question to this guy.
Who is clearly not stupid.

[Maximum Spin]

@Maximum Spin: As one of the smarter players, maybe you can explain something to me that has been bugging me?
NJW has the bible page.
The bible page directs the first kill to the holder of the page.
We know from Night 1 that if the bible page moves, the mafia can kill whomever they want.
NJW was asked by Imp to give up the bible page.
NJW adamantly refuses to give up the bible page.

How is NJW mafia?

Why do you think that NJW, the guy who asked for the Bible page in the first place, but consistently failed to commit to an answer to what would happen if he was mafiakilled holding it, then finally gave up and just said, I don't know, who knows what will happen, don't blame me if it doesn't work out - doesn't have some way to overcome this? He might have an ability that says, your actions cannot be redirected, or no actions can be redirected to you, or actions that would target (or possibly 'be redirected to') you hit a random other player, or, for all we know, items he holds just don't work on him. There are enough possibilities that it's stupid ever to count on any arranged situation that a player has voluntarily asked for. Just like Imp keeps saying, you can't assume anyone can't get out of anything in this game.
He only needs to get away with it once, then say, "oops, I guess it didn't work, sorry guys, I tried, but I told you I wasn't sure", then give away the page to anyone he feels like killing, or try to get Imp to annihilate it.

Also, NJW waffled on giving Imp the page and strongly implied he was willing to do so later, and only took that back and very firmly insisted "NOT GONNA" after Imp massively scumread him for it. Correctly. So the last two statements of your sequence are in fact lies.

[TricMagic]

Phone. Checked on a whim before sleep. Max, why does this look like I'd wake up to find the lynch over and town dead?
Can't read it given font changed to be tiny. But still. bed.

[Imp]

NJW was asked by Imp to give up the bible page.

I delayed until Max answered.

EJ.  Where did that happen?  Quotes, because they don't exist.  You don't understand.  if you think you do, quotes and discuss.

The most you find:

From the 1st time NJW said he'd take the page and explained why:

Ok, this is a bit dubious but I'll take the hot potato item. Don't action me with a protect or anything, my ability should take care of it on its own. If not... suspect Toony, I guess?

I discussed a bit then fully supported.  I also set up 'townie outs' for NJW.  If at any time he wanted to give up that Page.  One would cost him an action, the other a trade, I promised him I would offer a trade for that page if he wanted out, and explained why him secretly using a give was pro-town and I'd do all I could to hide it, at least then scum wouldn't know if he had it or not still.  Unless he was scum.

He took zero townie outs.  And waffled hard.

I never tried to get that Page from him.  I want it in his hands and staying there.  He can now take it out of the game, if we elim him.  He's scum.  I don't care if he has the page or not, because I don't have a townier answer than him holding it, if only his claim was true.  If he doesn't hold it, I have to take it out of play, far as I know.  He dying with it takes it out of play.  Same result to me.  Dead scum is worth more than the small pro-town benefit I could gain through my method.  Forget that - pro-town is dead anti-town.  He's acting anti-town, intensely, primarily related to that Page.

Anyway, EJ.  Quote where I:

NJW was asked by Imp to give up the bible page.

All I ever do is permit him to say, townie out, early D2, 'Yeah, now that I see this, it's not for me, I can't do this'.  He never did that.  He did scum stuff.  I don't even know if he has the Page now, reasonable that he already traded it.  I think 2 scum is too few, I think he has a scumbuddy safely holding it, the one that actually did the kill of Qua, freeing an action to give Page, presuming they don't have a way to give for free.  Not sure, but very interested in if we see the Page when he flips, if we flip him.

Point being:

NJW adamantly refuses to give up the bible page.

Was the townie answer.  He never did that.  He scum squiggled around the idea, and explores setting up the idea he trades it to CM for protection on N3.

I asked about you being willing to take the bible page even though it may not draw the kill to you, when there is the option to block the kill n3 by giving both to idk, Crystallized or whatever.

What the flipping F if he even has the page, this man who says don't target me, who FLIPPED OUT when I asked if it was safe to redirect scummy folks I didn't expect to use any kills into him, after he took the page, which redirects kills to him, he voted me and called me anti-town for even exploring the idea.

This player should be adamantly holding to that Page, or towning out.  Town out time passed.  This man is not adamantly refusing to give up the Page.  That's how he's scum.