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[webadict]

ToonyMan, I would care slightly more about what you have to say if I haven't already seen this Jack episode on the same Jack channel over and over again.

Note:  This is a joke and not intended to be mean.
Pretty sure this one's the sequel.  Jack Alone 2:  Lost in New BYORk

[Imp]

Hey, ToonieMan.

Can you help me understand here?  It's addressed to someone else, and even bolded surely easy to miss in all the mess.  But, TooneyMan, can you help us understand why you behaved as you did, at each key point?

I'm basically asking about your reactions to the various Pirate things, especially very early on.

@Imp:
Why would Jack get their Piratechat now instead of at the start of the game? I am annoyed how FoU has been handling this game if true.

I don't know when EuchreJack might have gotten the Piratechat.  I think reasonable either 'at start of game' or 'when it gets people'.  I also didn't initially think he's a part of it, but he totally could be.

I have three theories:

Minimally likely, but vaguely possible, 1) EuchreJack is only pirate-ally.  He isn't even in that Piratechat, no idea what's in it if anything.  No idea if anyone's in it.  That means he's lying about being able to see into it, which he said he's in it.  Bad news for me if that's the case, but I think it's so unlikely it's worth the risk for me to accept.

Extremely, incredibly likely, nearly everything else ruled out to my understanding, 2) EuchreJack is some definitely-not-scum alignment, likely town, and does have the Piratechat.  He's alone in it, been there from the start.  Despite it's name, and there maybe even being another Piratechat of some sort with other people in it, Jack has been honest with most or all of his claims.  All or most of his reactions and frustration shown are real, and he has been doing his best.  (Umm, I have some of the same feelings, I even yelled at our mod in big letters, those weren't all questions I said, heh, after seeing TricMagic's flip.  I sorted that out, but from my own stew of a mess, also self-created from what I said without understanding everything, and trying to make great choices with challengingly-worded stuff.  But... I think I was supposed to notice a lot of things about EuchreJack and be able to self-verify his claims pretty easily.  I don't know what he sees, but what I see in my DM... we were 'made for each other' in a way.  Now, is he a really good trap made for me?  If so, he's shockingly believable, across all these hours and everything else we've seen.  I currently give this a very high probability, though I'm open to being wrong and desperate for clues if I am.  However, the really risky path I think I see, appears probably mod-designed to guide me towards EuchreJack

He and I are basically, maybe, attempting to pull a this, in terms of trust of each other, least I feel like that unicorn:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1KHSn_9wpY only there's room for two more in this 'lap of fate'.

Nearly flipping impossible, 3) EuchreJack is cult and didn't know at first or had great reason to act the way he has despite knowing.  Cult chats are not scum teams, so he didn't get the scum team 'go hunt someone with this ability, and here's some other cool info too' memo and was blindsided about a lot of other Pirate stuff, or is faking it wonderfully and to me fully believably.  Except I don't know if Cult chats are considered scum teams, have yet another question pending between FallacyofUrist and myself about that.  But alignment Pirates are red.  And everything else I could say about this is incredibly far out there speculation, and I think it's all extremely unlikely.  This seems less likely to me than EuchreJack being a pirate-ally, and I think EuchreJack's town.

I don't trust Jack at all.

I think your reasoning works if Jack has a team, but I believe he started the game as the only mafia in the "Pirate" group. I can only speculate on his true role, maybe he can pass his alignment to a Piratechat member if he were to die. Something that would be balanced and that Meph would be okay with while reviewing.

Why and how would EuchreJack's team allow him, encourage him, or want him to act as he has and say what he's said?  I swear to you, upon what you apparently think makes me look townie, and all the claims I've made this entire game, if EuchreJack is part of a scum team from the start of the game, it is flipping impossible for him to truly not know that Pirates are an alignment told to go kill a target that is also being hunted by Mafia equally informed to hunt that target and though serial killers are not informed, they wanna hunt that target too because reward (reward is a trap for the actual killer though, real benefit for the other enemies).  Even if the mod didn't put any colors in the roles.  Even if EuchreJack is staring at alignment Pirate without color or with some wrong color, he is also staring at information telling him Pirates are like Mafia are like Serial Killers and have a target to go kill so 'Villians Victorious' happens.  If he saw that, none of his behavior makes sense.  He did not see that.  His Piratechat, if he's in it, doesn't have that info.  I am slightly scared he's just Pirate-ally, and not in the pirate chat, which existed since start of game, sitting empty, and some of us have that info waiting there.  I put that at a very low probability.

I really don't believe Max's idea that Pirates may not be actual players in this game. That feels very wrong to me. Everything in my mind tells me they are here and Jack is the key. Jack has not responded to me asking him to tell me his exact feelings when he was upset early on in the game here. I think this is scummy.

TricMagic being a potential SK...how many non-Pirate Mafia members would there be here if Jack is town? If Jack is mafia?

I hear you about EuchreJack's emotions.  I tell you, I have felt the same this game, and pretty strongly.  I didn't behave that way, and I only yelled briefly at the mod, and never gave up for a second.  I also know I got exactly what I asked for.  I asked for a wide range because I didn't know how big or small this could go, and I'm in the range I asked for, and I didn't get one thing outside of what I asked for, for all I was confused and messed up.  But I asked for confusion and chances to mess up too.

But EuchreJack has claimed twice I think that he didn't get what he really wanted.  That too might explain why EuchreJack and I are behaving differently.  But seeing my role PM, and seeing EuchreJack's behavior, I want to make things better for him, not vote him.  Even before when I was much more worried and didn't think him very likely town, but very likely pirate-ally, I didn't want him dead, and I was openly checking if he needed help from my first, minimally informed and full of mess ups post in the game:

"EuchreJack, this almost seems like something that requests help, but I am not sure.  Also, in my dreams, Pirates filled the seas with red.  If you need help, you might need it most.  I'm also scared of you."

About how many, I don't know.  Either way.  I was told a lot, for town.  I was not told that.  Guessing, I don't know.  I'm a newbie, this is like my 8th mafia game ever, I think.  Close to that.  You experts, like yourself, are the ones to answer that, I think.

[ToonyMan]

@Webadict:
I AM mad at Jim that he shot Tric. I was expecting to be dead to show how strong I believe Jack is mafia and prove Pirates are mafia.

If Jack is town I can apologize and offer my life. I've already offered my life to this cause. This won't stop me from scumhunting to the end, however.

I don't believe the Mafia would want Jack to die today, because he is more harmful to town while alive. I kept this in mind while doing my reads, this is fully intentional. I would probably feel a little better about you and Max if you were even mildly suspicious of Jack.

Jack won't respond to my question about his feelings when he was first upset. Also, Jack is claiming they are ALSO a pirate miller, just like me. I don't believe it.

[Maximum Spin]

ToonyMan, I would care slightly more about what you have to say if I haven't already seen this Jack episode on the same Jack channel over and over again.

Note:  This is a joke and not intended to be mean.
Pretty sure this one's the sequel.  Jack Alone 2:  Lost in New BYORk

Possibly, maybe, this game features creatures like pirates, but EuchreJack's innocence leaves him a dancer in the dark. If ToonyMan could just declare independence from his assumptions, we could lynch oh-so-quiet sofanthiel, and all would be full of love. It's in our hands now.

[Maximum Spin]

By the way, ToonyMan, I'm not particularly concerned about Imp anymore now that it has been pretty much clarified that Imp WAS intentionally being shady about something quite possibly benign. I'm not convinced or anything, but it's not a priority.

[Imp]

ToonyMan, I would care slightly more about what you have to say if I haven't already seen this Jack episode on the same Jack channel over and over again.

Note:  This is a joke and not intended to be mean.
Pretty sure this one's the sequel.  Jack Alone 2:  Lost in New BYORk

Hehe!  NQT opened with a Batman-like poem too.

And I find this hilarious, Webadict, thanks for the laugh.

TooneyMan:

So, it would help me hugely, hugely hugely, if you can explain your reactions to Pirates mentioned throughout the thread.  Especially the earliest, when we all knew the least.

We have Egan_BW's reaction, mine, and yours.  All three of us claim we have red Pirate info in our PMs.

But I think your reaction to pirate mentions looks really different from mine and Egan_BW's, to me.  And you also react to me dropping loads of info in my first post and go 'wow, one heck of a townie there'.

So... can you explain why you, um, like me so much?  You're doing a great job.  Even if you are scum I don't really want you out on D1, there's other scum, right?  I like how you are playing.

But you know different things than I do.  And than Egan_BW does.  And it shows.

I can explain your behavior pretty well by saying 'he saw my ability in his scumchat'.  I'd like another way to explain it.  I know there can be other reasons.  Would you please, please, please give them?

Especially why you think I'm town.  I know so much.  What do you know that makes you think this 'knows so much Imp of the Rings' (That is not what I claim.  But that's what you called me) is clearly town and not anything else, despite all this shocking knowledge I proclaim?

[Imp]

I have this question.  Does anyone think it is possible that a player in this game could have a role that would flip to look innocent, though they were actually some anti-town alignment?

I know of scrubbers, or whatever they're called, that can remove roleflip info.  Could someone in this game self scrub or self overwrite, or is that not on the possible list?

I note that ToonyMan has offered his life and wanted people to agree to do specific stuff if he flips town.

I wonder if maybe something like that is involved, or can we rule that out?

[webadict]

This won't stop me from scumhunting to the end, however.

...

Max, please tag in, I need my post restriction intact!

[Egan_BW]

I have this question.  Does anyone think it is possible that a player in this game could have a role that would flip to look innocent, though they were actually some anti-town alignment?

I know of scrubbers, or whatever they're called, that can remove roleflip info.  Could someone in this game self scrub or self overwrite, or is that not on the possible list?

I note that ToonyMan has offered his life and wanted people to agree to do specific stuff if he flips town.

I wonder if maybe something like that is involved, or can we rule that out?

Generally not a thing outside of bastard mods.

[ToonyMan]

@Imp:
Jack said they just got their Piratechat recently, which again, doesn't make any sense to me. I don't believe Jack can be town unless Max is correct that:

1. There are no real Pirates, which I find ridiculous. This would mean we'd have like what, five Mafia members at least? Tric wasn't a full SK, and there may be other third parties.

2. The real Pirates are a group of other players. And because me and Jack sent pirate-y roles we ended up as millers. Even though my role does NOTHING else with pirates besides being a miller, while Jack's role has this entire piratechat shit and making people millers. I don't believe he's town here either. He also 100% wants to make people millers, he won't even THINK about not doing it.

The simple rundown is:
1. I wake up, see my role via email, see I'm a miller that inspects as pirate
2. Go about my day
3. Make my first post, say I'm a miller but don't say anything else
4. Notice that Jack is talking about Pirates, which piques my interest so I ask him the straw hat question
5. His response makes it look like he's claiming pirate
6. Imp says pirates are like mafia so I back that up
7. I notice later that pirate is in red and is a mafia faction
8. I believe Jack messed up and slipped so I have pursued this heavily

As I think about this reaccountment, I don't believe Jack opened by claiming miller in any way. This bothers me a ton. I feel like if Jack was really a miller like myself he would have claimed that. He knows the miller meta. It was until after getting caught out that he gave the miller claim on his role.

PPE:
I believe you Imp because of independent thought and innocence. You speak waxing poetry and aren't afraid to share your feelings, which feel very genuine to me.

[Jim Groovester]

I've done zero Christmas shopping today. If you have a bad Christmas, you can blame me for ruining it. I'm sorry.

I'm reading the thread backwards because fuck you try and stop me. I want to and probably will vote sofanthiel. sofanthiel's attack on Max is ???????? and Max makes some very good points in response. Max is coming across as incredibly sensible in these last ten pages or so in general.

I am aggravated every time I read one of Imp's post because nothing about what Imp says needs to take up as much room as it does. I hope it isn't being done intentionally to make the game a slog. Regardless of whether it's being done intentionally or unintentionally, I would really appreciate it if Imp would be more considerate of the amount of effort they are demanding out of other players to read through their posts and consider communicating more concisely and efficiently to reduce that effort.

I am aggravated at all the drama EuchreJack has caused. I am glad he declined a modkill offer and I hope that is the end of him expressing self-eliminating inclinations.

There are other things I may or may not note when I finish reading. I forget how far back I need to read before I consider myself caught up.

[ToonyMan]

6. Imp says pirates are like mafia so I back that up

I didn't know specifically pirates were red and mafia at that time which is why when I backed Imp up I said something like "at the very least, Pirates are not Town since I inspect as Pirate instead of Town".

This won't stop me from scumhunting to the end, however.

...

Max, please tag in, I need my post restriction intact!

Screw you. neener neener neener

[Maximum Spin]

This won't stop me from scumhunting to the end, however.

...

Max, please tag in, I need my post restriction intact!

Unfortunately, I have no words.

@Imp:
Jack said they just got their Piratechat recently, which again, doesn't make any sense to me.

Where did he say this?

As I think about this reaccountment, I don't believe Jack opened by claiming miller in any way. This bothers me a ton. I feel like if Jack was really a miller like myself he would have claimed that. He knows the miller meta. It was until after getting caught out that he gave the miller claim on his role.

He said he didn't think he was a miller because he thought "Pirate" was just a silly thing to inspect as, not a real alignment.
I feel like this is believable from EuchreJack.

Besides, you still aren't doing the real required work here: explaining why Scum EuchreJack would act the way he has. Why would he do literally any of this as scum? Have you met him?

[FallacyofUrist]

BlackHeartKabal (0):
Crystalizedmire (0):
Egan_BW (1): Jim Groovester
Elephant Parade (0):
EuchreJack (4): Egan_BW, ToonyMan, notquitethere, BlackHeartKabal
hector13 (0):
Imp (2): Elephant Parade, Crystalizedmire
Jim Groovester (0):
Knightwing64 (0):
Lenglon (0):
Maximum Spin (0):
notquitethere (0):
Secretdorf (0):
sofanthiel (6): hector13, Secretdorf, Maximum Spin, EuchreJack, webadict, The Canadian kitten
The Canadian kitten (1): Lenglon
ToonyMan (0):
webadict (0):

No Execution (0):

9 votes to hammer.

Not Voting (3): Imp, Knightwing64, sofanthiel

Reminder: Day 1 ends on Monday 8 PM, Central time.

As usual, correct me if it looks like I got anything wrong.

[ToonyMan]

Max is coming across as incredibly sensible in these last ten pages or so in general.

I don't trust Max because he was scumreading Imp and townreading Jack. Complete opposite of me.

@Imp:
Jack said they just got their Piratechat recently, which again, doesn't make any sense to me.

Where did he say this?

Here:

sofanthiel can have some pressure, sure.

@Imp: I have access to Pirate chat now. I'm lonely.

He said he didn't think he was a miller because he thought "Pirate" was just a silly thing to inspect as, not a real alignment.
I feel like this is believable from EuchreJack.

Besides, you still aren't doing the real required work here: explaining why Scum EuchreJack would act the way he has. Why would he do literally any of this as scum? Have you met him?

1. Jack won't answer me about how he felt when he got upset at the start of the game, I asked him to explain why exactly he was so angry, which people he was angry towards, and why. I think this would be helpful to figure out his alignment. I will ask him again to do this, I think this is the third or fourth time.
2. If Jack is a miller like me, then I can tell you it specifically says "you alignment inspect as a Pirate". I wasn't aware of the red color at the start of the game because I read my role via email, however it was very clear it was for an alignment inspect. If Jack is like me then we saw the same thing, even without the colors because I read via email first.
3. Jack has all these pirate abilities that I don't have, like having a piratechat and making people pirate millers. These would be useful for mafia, not town. In addition, Jack 100% wants to perform these actions when they could be harmful to town.
4. Jack refused to vote Jim with me, even though Jack called me and Imp scum at the time. Why would he not want to thunderdome with me if he knows he's town and thinks I'm scum?