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[jipehog]

I just draw a line at the use of cluster munitions, and other weapons deemed inhumane by treaties and conventions.
If I didn't we could all just as well say fuck all, become Russian right now and have it done with.

My point is that line is arbitrary, that was shaped by interests and circumstances as Criptfeind noted.

I wouldn't be surprised if most common ammunition dud rates are far higher than that of modern cluster bombs (more so for all the old soviet stock and ammunition we sent) and so between that the million+ rounds and some absurd sounding estimates that 40 percent of Ukraine's total land area is mined I don't see that few cluster bomb will make a difference on this front. On the other hand I do see how cluster munitions can be useful against dug-in Russian positions and help reduce the ammo hunger.

Otherwise I don't subscribe to the black and white notion of freedom fighter vs terrorist, its good guy narrative for the unaware (you do realize that Ukraine using a lot of "illegal" stuff too that isn't advertised) and they aren't pandering to the idealist they are fighting an existential war in the real world

[Madman198237]

Spoiler: Not to continue the cluster debate but the public perception of weapons is an interesting topic. Sorry. (click to show/hide)

The particular hate for cluster munitions is quite interesting because they are substantially LESS bad when compared to mines of ANY sort, including antipersonnel and antitank ones. Even remote-detonated ones, which can be lost in the chaos of battle and then end up as UXO.

A mine, after all, is intentionally hidden, even if one side knows (theoretically anyway) exactly where they hid it. Cluster munitions are not worse than dropping an equivalent number of similarly small munitions on the same place, and their own downside is the randomness in where they fall and thus where any UXO might end up. And they're left relatively close to the surface due to their typical deployment methods and small size, making them easier to find than an artillery shell that digs itself thirty feet down and waits until somebody starts a construction project fifty years from now.

These places across Ukraine are already shelled constantly, with old Soviet artillery shells whose reliability I would call into serious question. Demining them not just of actual mines but also unexploded shells and dropped hand grenades and a thousand other potentially lethal devices discarded on the battlefield is not going to become substantially worse with cluster munitions involved.


Nothing is ever simple; the popular perception of war isn't exactly accurate; and maybe we don't need to get so worked up over a weapon system that doesn't intentionally cause unnecessary suffering? If we're going to pass off incendiaries as "fine" then why bother getting worked up over cluster munitions?

Also, and well yeah, because the USA and Ukraine did not sign the treaty against cluster munitions, your countries are seen as barbaric failed states by a lot of people, not much better than Afghanistan or Best Korea. For some, Best Korea is more civilized than the USA, because even though both have nuclear, biological, chemical weapons and cluster munitions, at least in Best Korea civilians do not have guns.

Sweet goodness, what the hell are these people smoking? That's a hell of a hot take for somebody to actually, seriously believe. I understand the US isn't perfect but this... I'm struggling to figure out if I should be furious or laughing my head off.

And even past that the incredible nonsense of regarding cluster munitions as being on the same level as NBC weapons is just....so far beyond the pale. This is nonsense to the Nth degree. Radiation, biological attacks, on the same level as a weapon that's just "more small bombs"? The perspective of what makes a war crime a war crime is just...missing there.

[EuchreJack]

@Madman: I thought you weren't going to continue the cluster debate. That would imply that you'd put all your comments on it under the spoiler, and you wouldn't be responding to other people's comments on cluster munitions.

But we seem to be de-escalating.

[MaxTheFox]

Yep I was puzzled by it too but I don't really want to chip in with my take on cluster munitions.

[Madman198237]

@Madman: I thought you weren't going to continue the cluster debate. That would imply that you'd put all your comments on it under the spoiler, and you wouldn't be responding to other people's comments on cluster munitions.

But we seem to be de-escalating.

Then I caught the "US is as bad as literal murderous dictatorships because cluster munitions". Whoops. I don't think "cluster munitions do not make the US as bad as Afghanistan or North Korea" is a particularly argumentative take though seeing as how nobody in this thread is espousing it---martinuzz is reporting it as a belief of other people.

[Duuvian]

Ukraine commander irked by lack of arms promised for offensive

Commander-in-chief of Ukraine’s armed forces Valery Zaluzhny says lack of fighter jets, artillery hampering offensive.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/1/ukraine-commander-irked-by-lack-of-arms-promised-for-offensive

Has pilot training comenced? I'm beginning to grow frustrated saying the same things.
------------

As to cluster munitions, I think it's a damn shame the treaty didn't have the signatories needed to make it effective. I said as much long ago.

[Lord Shonus]

It is also important to note that, as a non-signatory to the ban, Ukraine has been openly using cluster bombs from the time this war began, with no special outrage. Likewise, Russia, also a non-signatory of the ban, has been using them against Ukraine since day 1 of the war. Including yeeting them direct into Kiev before the capital's air defenses improved enough (and Russian long range munitions stocks dropped low enough) that doing so became difficult to bother with. I'd bet everything I own against a nickel that adding US-made weapons (which is a Big Deal primarily because the West is beginning to run into serious ammunition shortages in some categories, and a opening a huge stockpile of hitherto untouched shells will greatly alleviate that) to the mix won't make a damn bit of difference to public support.


This war has already created a generational UXO hazard for Ukraine. Adding bomblets won't make that significantly worse.

[King Zultan]

Also, and well yeah, because the USA and Ukraine did not sign the treaty against cluster munitions, your countries are seen as barbaric failed states by a lot of people, not much better than Afghanistan or Best Korea. For some, Best Korea is more civilized than the USA, because even though both have nuclear, biological, chemical weapons and cluster munitions, at least in Best Korea civilians do not have guns.

Sweet goodness, what the hell are these people smoking? That's a hell of a hot take for somebody to actually, seriously believe. I understand the US isn't perfect but this... I'm struggling to figure out if I should be furious or laughing my head off.

And even past that the incredible nonsense of regarding cluster munitions as being on the same level as NBC weapons is just....so far beyond the pale. This is nonsense to the Nth degree. Radiation, biological attacks, on the same level as a weapon that's just "more small bombs"? The perspective of what makes a war crime a war crime is just...missing there.

I just took that whole thing as martinuzz acting all morally superior up there on his high horse in country unaffected by the war.

[Duuvian]

I agree with you Shonus, though sadly.

Ninja'd: No Zultan, martin is not necessarily wrong on this issue. It is circumstances that override this imo, as Shonus has detailed.

[jipehog]

Nothing wrong with cluster debate. Just a couple of people with different personal takes on the issue and a poor choice of words that got personal, sidestepping that this is a debate that we should have, especially if the war is going to drag on for years.. people should be clear eyed about what is going and the lack of the superhero shine in the trenches.

We can try a different angle. Main reason that specific cluster bombs were banned its indiscriminate nature coupled with high dud rate, by that logic your run of the mill improvised explosive device (IED) activated by Nokia phone used by terrorist is more "humane" than many things used by the "good guys" in Europe before that.

won't make a damn bit of difference to public support.

Yeah this happens with every new announcement of means, usually its forgotten with the month.

[Lord Shonus]

Main reason that specific cluster bombs were banned its indiscriminate nature coupled with high dud rate, by that logic your run of the mill improvised explosive device (IED) activated by Nokia phone used by terrorist is more "humane" than many things used by the "good guys" in Europe before that.

It is entirely the dud rate (the wide area of effect just puts the onus on the user to aim them right, it wasn't a major factor in the ban - a lot of the "alternative warhead" programs like the tungsten shot used by some GMLRS rounds are intended to try regaining the area-effect lost by decommissioning bomblets), which is unavoidable. Not only are there flaws in any manufacturing process, an impact-fuzed bomblet has to be insensitive enough to not detonate just from the buffeting of air on the way down. And the impact of hitting dirt isn't that much more severe than the effects of aerial turbulence. Especially when the dirt it is hitting is already being shaken by hundreds of other explosions.

[Strongpoint]

Fun fact: Russians are still going to Crimea for their summer vacations.  There are traffic jams on the way TO Crimea. Truly, those people live in some parallel reality. Well, I hope they'll enjoy the vacation should the bridge go boom.

[EuchreJack]

Main reason that specific cluster bombs were banned its indiscriminate nature coupled with high dud rate, by that logic your run of the mill improvised explosive device (IED) activated by Nokia phone used by terrorist is more "humane" than many things used by the "good guys" in Europe before that.

It is entirely the dud rate (the wide area of effect just puts the onus on the user to aim them right, it wasn't a major factor in the ban - a lot of the "alternative warhead" programs like the tungsten shot used by some GMLRS rounds are intended to try regaining the area-effect lost by decommissioning bomblets), which is unavoidable. Not only are there flaws in any manufacturing process, an impact-fuzed bomblet has to be insensitive enough to not detonate just from the buffeting of air on the way down. And the impact of hitting dirt isn't that much more severe than the effects of aerial turbulence. Especially when the dirt it is hitting is already being shaken by hundreds of other explosions.

And I imagine it's the older, more dud prone munitions that are being donated. Although that is just idle speculation.

[jipehog]

Its indiscriminate in the sense that after deployment these duds can be triggered by anyone including civilians, and me trying to shoehorn an analog for target activated mines.

Also I suspect that this might be the ammunition that Ukraine is asking for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-purpose_improved_conventional_munition

[EuchreJack]

Wagner apparently isn't just gonna go away.
https://me.pcmag.com/en/security/17887/wagner-hackers-say-they-shut-down-russian-satellite-internet-provider