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[Criptfeind]

I dunno man, we don't have things like a Geneva convention and treaties to ban cluster munitions and anti personell mines for no reason.

We have them to avoid civilian causalities. Or specifically, for the ban on cluster munitions, you have them because your nation exists in a world order so completely dominated by a single hegemonic power and a rules based international order propped up by said power that has at least locally has subsumed any realistic chance of war that the question of if the Netherlands will loose civilians in a war has little to do with the actions of the Netherlands. For people that don't enjoy that level of security in the world, for instance, nations located next to Russia, they declined to sign the treaty because they thought that there were worse threats to their civilian populations then their own use of these weapons, and history seems to be proving at least one of said nations correct.

Besides, despite the discomfort of the average Ukrainan as his country is destroyed, his family killed, and his wife and children raped to death, I don't think any Ukrainian would like the solution to that to be that their children, grand children, great grand children and their respective dogs and cats can be randomly blown to bits by the remnants of wars of eras past. Because that's exactly what cluster munitions do.

Except of course, for the Ukrainans asking for cluster munitions?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'd argue that even if this is true, it's traveled down with bad actions.

[martinuzz]

Except of course, for the Ukrainans asking for cluster munitions?

Fair enough, let me rephrase.

Besides, despite the discomfort of the average Ukrainan as his country is destroyed, his family killed, and his wife and children raped to death, I don't think any *sane* Ukrainian would like the solution to that to be that their children, grand children, great grand children and their respective dogs and cats can be randomly blown to bits by the remnants of wars of eras past. Because that's exactly what cluster munitions do.

Let's just say.. Public opionion is with Ukraine in the West European world. Doing things like asking for cluster munitions is not helping that cause. Ask for anything. Ask for jet fighters, ask for long range missiles, ask for, helll, even ask for MOABs. Just don't ask for nukes, chemical weapons, biological weapons, or cluster munitions. The population here does not like that.

[Criptfeind]

To clarify, you think that the command structure of the Ukrainian military and the ranking relevant Ukrainian politicians are insane?

How do you think the country is functioning if so many people in power are insane?

No, I think there's a very fraught but very sane calculation going on here about the long term costs of cluster munitions and the short term costs of not using them. And I think your dismissal of that calculation as insane and barbaric comes from a very overly comfortable place where you know that neither you nor your loved ones are in danger either way.

[martinuzz]

To clarify, you think that the command structure of the Ukrainian military and the ranking relevant Ukrainian politicians are insane?

Luckily, no. Just the one or two idiots that thought it a good idea to ask for cluster munitions.

No, I think there's a very fraught but very sane calculation going on here about the long term costs of cluster munitions and the short term costs of not using them. And I think your dismissal of that calculation as insane and barbaric comes from a very overly comfortable place where you know that neither you nor your loved ones are in danger either way.

If this conflict escalates, I will be very much in danger, living within 100% lethal range of even a small nuke on a strategically very important NATO airport, not to mention the close proximity of the military base where the Netherlands 'totally does not store US nukes until it was admitted by government that we actualy *do* have nukes there'.

Yet you're right, at the moment my country is not being destroyed, my family is not being killed, I do not have wives or children that can be raped to death, so I am indeed in a comfortable, albeit not overly so place.
I am however a descendant of holocaust survivors. I know the insanity of war and mass destruction by authoritarian regimes. I have every reason to want Russia to be defeated.
But I still will call cluster munitions barbaric and insane.

[Criptfeind]

To clarify, you think that the command structure of the Ukrainian military and the ranking relevant Ukrainian politicians are insane?

Luckily, no. Just the one or two idiots that thought it a good idea to ask for cluster munitions.

How exactly does that work? The US can not just unilaterally decide that the Ukrainian army are now using cluster munitions, and attempts to do so would be... extremely stupid. If the US sends Cluster Munitions to Ukraine it will be because the Ukrainian military wants them and Ukrainian politicians asked for them. Not just "one or two idiots"

[jipehog]

Cluster Munitions is as legal as Russian incendiary weapons. And can be very useful against entrenched forces.

btw according to some definition of cluster munition, Urkaine is already using them i.e. the "mine shells" (whatever they called), that are used during engagements to mine access roads behind enemy lines to cutoff Russian counter-attacks/reinforcements

You cannot compare incendiary weapons (even white phosporus) with cluster munitions. White phosporus and napalm are horrible, but they are done burning within a few hours / days.
Cluster munitions will keep killing innocent civilians for decades if not centuries.

I would be less outraged at using nerve gas against trenches than I would be outraged about using cluster munitions on trenches.

I can because the legality of these ammunition is the same.

Otherwise AT mines will be killing innocent civilians for decades if not centuries and they are perfectly legal. As for cluster munitions, if used right it can save a lot of lives and end the war by provide a much needed breakthrough and its future harm mitigated, so this might be a question of proportionality (was nuking Japan fine?). On the other hand incendiary weapons are cruel, they cause horrific burn and pain, people die suffering or left with long-term injuries.

Do we actually know what cluster munition Ukraine ask for?

[martinuzz]

(was nuking Japan fine?).

No, it was barbaric and insane (not to mention strategically unnescessary, since Japan was already defeated and terrified by carpet fire bombing towns and villages), although the knowledge of how bad the atomic bomb was, was less wide spread than current day knowledge about how bad cluster munitions are for future generations. Can't compare them with AT mines, for AT mines are both less numerous, and much more detectable ('hey a rusty piece of iron' (unexploded cluster munitions) vs 'Dude!!!! That looks like a mine!' (for the few AT mines left post war).

https://reliefweb.int/report/world/unicef-highlights-horrific-impact-cluster-munitions-children-governments-meet-decide

[Criptfeind]

I am however a descendant of holocaust survivors. I know the insanity of war and mass destruction by authoritarian regimes. I have every reason to want Russia to be defeated.

I'm not sure 100% if this is an appropriate response, but I don't think I can't make it at this point.

You're the descendant of holocaust survivors, in Ukraine, survivors of an ongoing attempt at genocide are fighting to prevent it. You "know" the insanity of war and mass destruction by authoritarian regimes, in Ukraine, they live that insanity and destruction. You claim to have every reason to want Russia to be defeated, in Ukraine they have many more reasons then you do.

Even to me even as someone who is not in Ukraine and probably even more comfortably isolated from the war then you are these statements, and your dismissal of the Ukrainians fighting for their lives and country as barbaric and insane seemly frankly deeply disrespectful and insulting.

If you want to say you think that even with the costs of the current ongoing war the costs of cluster munitions are too great, fine, say that. But dismissing people who don't share your opinion in this way is vile.

[martinuzz]

You are putting words in my mouth. I never dismissed Ukrainians fighting for their lives and country as barbaric and insane. You are overgeneralizing.
I just draw a line at the use of cluster munitions, and other weapons deemed inhumane by treaties and conventions.
If I didn't we could all just as well say fuck all, become Russian right now and have it done with.

[jipehog]

Can't compare them with AT mines, for AT mines are both less numerous, and much more detectable ('hey a rusty piece of iron' (unexploded cluster munitions) vs 'Dude!!!! That looks like a mine!' (for the few AT mines left post war).

The simple fact is that AT mines are certain to kill many innocent civilians for decades. Your argument is one of proportionality, that they are less lethal hence you think its fine. So how do you draw that line between barbaric and insane vs meh? I think its important to recall why did we drew the line and why and think on whether this applies here.

[Starver]

[...] not much better than Afghanistan or Best Korea.

Well, Afghanistan signed/rattified/fully joined the CoCM, actually. Ironically whilst under the US-backed admnistration, but then that was maybe still a high-water mark for international responsibility, compared with immediately prior and since.

No similar thing can be said about Kim's World Of Adventure, the other example you give, but given that that place is the world's Hikikomori who might just be on the verge of firing high-powered weapons out of its bedroom window at 'everyone wot done him wrong' (or at least making it look like he might if you so much as look at his haircut funnily), I don;t think there's superlatives available to directly cover both cases.

[EuchreJack]

I'm sorry to have stirred up this mess regarding the cluster munitions.

I would respectfully ask everyone to calm down for a bit, otherwise I may need to lock this thread temporarily.

[Strongpoint]

Except of course, for the Ukrainans asking for cluster munitions?

Fair enough, let me rephrase.

Besides, despite the discomfort of the average Ukrainan as his country is destroyed, his family killed, and his wife and children raped to death, I don't think any *sane* Ukrainian would like the solution to that to be that their children, grand children, great grand children and their respective dogs and cats can be randomly blown to bits by the remnants of wars of eras past. Because that's exactly what cluster munitions do.

Let's just say.. Public opionion is with Ukraine in the West European world. Doing things like asking for cluster munitions is not helping that cause. Ask for anything. Ask for jet fighters, ask for long range missiles, ask for, helll, even ask for MOABs. Just don't ask for nukes, chemical weapons, biological weapons, or cluster munitions. The population here does not like that.

Then count me in as an insane Ukrainian. Do you know what will kill our children and grandchildren far more effectively than unexploded bomblets? Not defeated Russia. It is just a messy, bloody, unpleasant tradeoff.

Also, there is a big difference between being Russia, and indiscriminately using cluster munitions anywhere, including outright targeting cities and forests and using cluster munitions to push through heavily fortified positions, places that will be well known and will require extensive demining effort anyway.

Also, it is a bit late to worry about Ukrainian morality, we are sending captured cluster munitions back to Russians since the war started.

Also, also https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-seeks-us-cluster-bombs-adapt-drone-use-lawmakers-2023-03-06/ - Not all of them will even be used as intended.  We are running out of stuff to put on drones. 

[KittyTac]

Let's just say that over here, they are banned and viewed as a great evil. One of our biggest banks was almost destroyed when people quit their accounts en masse, because they invested some of their funds in cluster munitions.

Also, and well yeah, because the USA and Ukraine did not sign the treaty against cluster munitions, your countries are seen as barbaric failed states by a lot of people, not much better than Afghanistan or Best Korea. For some, Best Korea is more civilized than the USA, because even though both have nuclear, biological, chemical weapons and cluster munitions, at least in Best Korea civilians do not have guns.

Nah as long as my country loses and is buttfucked as hard as possible it's justified.

[MaxTheFox]

Bruh.