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[Robot Parade Leader]

Hi.

Really weird situation. My parents are older (70s). I am an adult (30s), and live on my own, etc. My parents and family are pretty abusive and toxic. Always have been. I got out with some (former) substance abuse issues, and I have not drank since "T" got me sober in late 2016-2017. So I am looking forward to my 5 year chip soon.

First thing, my toxic family's extreme abuse is part of how I got addiction issues and I do not want to ever have those again. They keep trying to get me to drink and do that sort of thing, and they know I had issues and  can not drink anymore. I've told them and they do not listen or they hear me but do not care. This and prior abuse is one of many reasons I do not have much contact with them. On the rare occasion I do have contact with them, how do I get it through their heads? Some people are just better off not drinking and I am one of them. Nothing they say or do is going to change that. I don't get how they can't accept this.

Ideas on getting people/family to just accept that you don't/can't drink as OK?

Second, my toxic parents are toxic and I have very little to do with them, after several years of trying to help them out (none of my other brothers and sisters ever did). It is likely they are up to some shady crap involving my (abusive) old dad with developing memory issues, and my (abusive) old mom. It's possible she's abusing him financially and perhaps in other ways. I do not know, but he's calling me up out of the blue asking me to "pick him up," and basically get him out of that situation/away from mom....

* Not sure how confused he is.
* Initially not sure what he wanted/where he wanted to go (apparently he thinks his car is at another property they have and he wants a ride there to get it).
* Not sure what he thinks he is going to do / where he is going to go if I give him a ride to where his car is (where he thinks it is, at their other house).
* Not sure if his license is valid (he says it is).
* He was very abusive previously and I do not feel I owe him much (so was she).
* Not sure how he is going to manage his health conditions if he just bolts or something and I have absolutely no ability to handle that (Money, medical knowledge, or anything).

I have no information to really work with here, and no one will tell me anything. It is possible there might be (primarily financial, but perhaps other?) abuse going on.

I am over an hour away and I have no real ability/way to get involved, at least without being seen as the bad person. At this point, do I give him the phone number for the local department of aging and tell him to tell them what's going on? Then have him call them and ask for an elder law lawyer and possibly the police or something depending on what's going on? (He won't tell me).


Limited information. Odd circumstances. Old wounds. No idea what to do. Thoughts?

[anewaname]

You didn't shut them out of your life completely, so you must have some unresolved disagreements with them that you want to resolve. They will try to use that against you.

He won't tell you the truth of what is happening. Abusive people avoid truth because they fear retribution from those they have hurt.

Don't be sympathetic to his problems, it could encourage him to be abusive to you and then you will waste time with that. If he demands something of you, don't give him anything except a "maybe I will", until you get all of the information you want out from the conversation; then tell him exactly what you will do and make it clear you're not agreeing to anything else. He needs to understand that your help is a resource that might not be available for him in the near future.

This may change how he communicates with you and might give you the opportunity to find out what is happening. He will not want you to ally with her against him, so ask him, "if I ask her what this is about, what is she going to say?"

[nenjin]

My take? They're turning to you because you're on the outside. Because you don't actually know WTF is going on. Which implies whatever they want your assistance with, if you actually knew the score, you probably wouldn't help.

The first basis of any functioning relationship is honesty. That's why I cut off my alcoholic mother, because she refused to practice basic honesty with me. (Calls me up drunk and when I ask if she's drunk, she lies. That's an immediate deal breaker for me. Yeah, I get it, she's an addict. But if an addict knows not to call you when under the influence because you told them not to, and they still call you up under the influence, I feel no obligation to work around her basic lack of honesty.)

So approach the situation as: I don't owe you shit. If you want my help, you need to be completely honest with me. You have the power here now. Whatever their situation is, they chose to ask you to help solve it for them. Which means you get to call the shots, and you get to set the ground rules for what your help requires from them.

Offer to put your dad up in a hotel room (and not give them access to their vehicle) until they can prove their capable of driving, they're sober and their license is valid? They won't do that? Tell them to call an Uber and make them deal with it.

As for getting them to respect your sobriety, make your presence contingent on that respect. You already seem like you're doing this more out of filial piety than actual desire to spend time with them, so if they won't give you the respect and dignity you need to be around them....then fuck em?

Again, do not let the fact they raised you and provided for you become a millstone around your neck and put you in situations where you are forced to accept that which you don't want to accept. Family is not, to me, a license for any kind of abuse. You could have raised me, fed me, clothed me, educated me...but if you treat me like shit and I don't need you, then I don't ultimately owe you anything.

People that truly respect you will do what they need to, to maintain that level of respect. People that just want to use you or keep you in a subservient position will leverage whatever they can to make that happen.

And it's also entirely possible that your growth as a person actively makes them angry/whatever, and it manifests by trying to bring you back down to their level.

TLDR though....they need you way more than you need them. You get to set the rules in that instance, and have the freedom to walk away.

[Iduno]

Similar situation here. I just walked away and they guilted me into doing more family stuff. The second time I left was forever, and it was so freeing for me. Life has improved significantly. That probably won't be true for everyone, but if they're stressing your out, it may not be worth your effort.

Rhetorical question: did you also get the

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"That didn't happen, and if it did it wasn't as bad as you remember, and it was all your fault anyway" BS? It's not as easy to notice in the moment, but how good is their defense when they continually have to find a different way to explain everything away?

[Robot Parade Leader]

Yeah, I probably do have unresolved issues with them and they probably would use that against me, again. Not a saint but I didn't do anything that bad to them, at all. I told him he isn't making any sense and that he needs to explain things, but you were right, he won't.

So far it hasn't changed how he communicates, and I haven't brought up the "if I ask her what this is about, what is she going to say?" thing. You may be right, but it just seems like a hornet's nest. Those two have always fought like hell, all through my life and theirs. Basically they're too old to get divorced and have been for a long time, if it's about them not getting along. In the 70s, after 45-50 or so years of marriage, multiple health issues, and now memory problems, what is he going to do to, leave her? This is not really a practical option with any solution. You hate to say it, but his choices are catching up with him at the end....

Sorry about your situation man. I can sorta kinda relate. I think you had some really good points. They must not trust me to know what is going on, and depending on what it is (that I don't know), I might not want anything to do with it if I did know. They don't want to tell me anything but just want me to do things without knowing. And of course no benefit for me, not even money necessarily but even being nice or hanging out decently or even a reciprocal favor (I would not trust one of them to pick me up). There's really no reason for that.

I've heard about "boundaries," but it's like they haven't. Every time I try to mention anything like that, they act like they don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm nuts or something. I'm not asking everyone to be sober around me, but I don't want to be in a place where everyone is basically completely drunk. It wouldn't be impossible for me to come around the beginning of something, before everyone got plastered, and leave before everyone got plastered. I won't say don't have a drink at all, but there's a difference between a drink, and all the drinks. I know it is better for me if I am not around completely irresponsible drinking. Just chill out and ease into it for like an hour or so. Put it this way, I can see where I got it from. They'll do big things for other family members, but not even little ones for me. Basic respect that should be shown to basically everyone....

And yeah, they've basically abused their family positions to extort me for a long time. Except now I'm not giving them what they want and it is a complete shock to them. All of this is a bitter pill to swallow: your own family being toxic, exploitative and basically not really caring about you....

O yeah. Gaslighting, on basically everything. Along with crushed self image/worth to go with their narcissistic abuse. Explaining things different ways isn't necessarily the bad part. The bad part is what they're explaining: they're awesome and we all suck.... It's amazing. I haven't had contact with them since I started this thread. The issues are still out there of course, but it's funny how people don't scream at one another like they do. I still hear it in my head (not hallucinating it, but just remembering it) because that was kind of their goal: make you remember their bullshit and accept it.

The holidays are going to suck. I have some friends that are having me over for thanksgiving, but christmas is going to be shit. I am probably not going to be going over their place. I'm mostly kind of numb to it, as I haven't really seen my family for a long time. Still kinda sucks, and it gets to me sometimes but I'm used to how it sucks. I look back and realize every thing was basically horrible, especially around the holidays. Sometimes no one would come together, and sometimes, worse, they would and maybe the police got called and maybe they didn't. Not really looking for sympathy on this one, but it's kinda a weird problem to have to solve.

I'm happier sober overall, and I know it's better for my for health, emotions, mental state, financial, and all that. Oddly it comes with weird costs, and I think people may be right that they feel oddly threatened by me trying to better myself/want to take whatever material or immaterial thing I have. They have before and they want to do it now.

Dad is not going to tell me what is going on, except that he believes Mom and sibling are up to some shady stuff. Mom is flat out not going to tell me anything, (and really dad isn't either). I don't have solutions to his problems, but they are also problems he got himself into and wouldn't do anything about. Now he basically wants me to not only solve his problems, but solve them without knowing what they are. I can't believe it but we've basically moved from completely unreasonable/maybe even impossible, into completely nonsensical/no way to do it anyhow.

[nenjin]

And yeah, they've basically abused their family positions to extort me for a long time. Except now I'm not giving them what they want and it is a complete shock to them. All of this is a bitter pill to swallow: your own family being toxic, exploitative and basically not really caring about you....

In a perfect world, no one would have to fight for basic respect.

In the real world, you have to fight for the respect you think you deserve. Very few people will go out of their way to grant you more respect than they want to give you or that they think you want. When it comes to family though, that's double tough. You shouldn't have to fight for your respect around your family or your friends.

I guess I figured this out around my mid to late teens when I was hanging out with a group of people that honestly didn't respect me. One day it dawned on me I didn't like them as a group. The only way I could ever get any respect out of them was 1v1, and that would disappear the minute they came together as a group. That's when I said "Fuck this, fuck you guys, I'd rather be alone than be treated this way." And I left. And when I see those people again, they generally give me polite respect. They don't immediately try to put me back in a subservient position. Because I showed a back bone and set a standard for how I want to be treated and stuck to it. (I also have my shit together more than some of them even after many years.)

As for the drinking, I'm there with ya. Hanging out with hard core drinkers as a sober person or just a casual drinker, it sucks. On pretty much every level. I can't stand my mother when she's hammered, the slurring and inability to have a real conversation are a deal breaker. So I just don't talk to her or spend time around her when she's been drinking. There's almost no acceptable amount of drunkenness between us now. If she's slurring, I'm out. Those are the boundaries I've set for myself as the only way I can continue to be around her. Otherwise I'm just making myself miserable suffering through her addiction for the sake of family.

It can certainly be a negative take on life, but the phrase "the strong stand alone" has merit. If you don't need them, then you don't need them. Whatever that means to you. Emotionally, psychologically, financially, whatever. You just gotta make the choice for yourself that you're better off without them than with them. You might lose them entirely. That's a consequence. But you will also lose the guilt. The feelings of betrayal. Your self-esteem will improve as you meet other people who don't have that baggage. And just the overall hurt only your family can cause you. It's a tough choice but it can be a good one. Maybe sit down and have a real think on the pros vs. the cons of your relationship to them. Good luck to ya.

[Robot Parade Leader]

I agree with most of what you said.

I get the feeling that everyone else (Yeah, I now know it's an over generalization) gets to complain until they get things the way they want. Seems it is either straight up complaining, or demanding reasons "why not," to those of us who have to listen to it for our jobs/sanity, or whatever. As misanthropic as T was, she once said, "Stupid questions don't seek answers, they demand certain answers. It's all backwards." Still don't know if I get what she meant, but I kinda do.

Annoying Family Question: "Why won't you come be with us?"
Real Answer I said: "You get drunk and I can't be around liquor without getting dangerously drunk, again.
"Answer" they Want: "You're right, I don't have any reason. I'll just forget everything and do whatever you want. Healthy, unhealthy, safe or dangerous. Whatever you want."

It seems like you can switch out the drinking part for just about anything with unreasonable people.

Q: Why didn't fast food employee do something X way? RA: They make no decisions; their boss/company does, Karen. AtW: Right away o royal customer.
Q: Why didn't X get done? RA: X is difficult, underfunded, and opposed/contested. Also X is sadly impractical. AtW: Right away your highness. Brilliant deduction. Here's money.
Same goes for everything I've talked about in this thread, and I bet for a lot of people with whatever they're personally dealing with.

I kind of feel this way, not only for me but for other people too. Thankfully, I'm sober and have had a job for a few years. Not everyone does, and it can be rough finding work.

That part with your friends sounds like it hurt man. I've seen that, and I've been that. It must have hurt to just walk away like that. How the hell did you deal with it?
Also, I kinda get your point about sticking up for yourself "backbone" or whatever, but I'm just glad it was safe for you to do that/without retaliation.
One thing I've learned is, when you pull away from people who hurt you, they like to make it cost you a price. Like pain, (emotional, social, or hopefully not physical but...).

I've recently stepped back from my family a lot, and they are exploitative jerks.
Part of it is probably because it's the holidays (even though I can't let myself care about that as much anymore).
Part of it is a strong idea of family (or other) obligation (even though I know it hurts too much to be around them).
Part of it is just fear of the unknown, like OK, just don't do that. And do what instead. Like the thought of bad vs. nothing is scary shit.

[nenjin]

It must have hurt to just walk away like that. How the hell did you deal with it?

Went on with life on my own for a while, ya know? Got busy. Did college, grew up, took on new responsibilities. Had my ups and downs of course. I reconnected with old friends who lived differently and did differently eventually. Going from my punk friends back to my nerdier friends.

Relationships can be transient, and change over time. See even though I walked away from the whole toxic punk thing, the story around it doesn't really end there.

One of the people from that group, the one who first invited me in during highschool, who used to like to rip into me for all sorts of reasons, reached out to me a good 5 years after I went my own way. Owned up to a lot of the behavior I didn't like. Apologized. We reconnected as friends.

We eventually became roommates. Lived together for like 5 or 6 years. Did our own things mostly, played games together. It was convenient for both of us. We had a lot of shared history, good and bad. He was a weed hook up for me and I helped him afford living in his own place instead of with his mom. (Who I'd rented from in the past myself. Like I said, a lot of shared history.) We'd discuss the way things used to be and he'd say "But I've changed haven't it?"

But some things never change. He'd never really started making adult money and often had a morally dubious approach to getting ahead in life. He'd toe the line between good and bad person, on one hand being a solid and dependable worker and a decent friend, but on the other wasn't above taking or doing something to help himself if he thought he wouldn't get caught. Whether that was a little quiet theft, or hoping you'd forget about money he owed you, or throwing you under the bus in private to someone, or vibe checking people's girlfriends to see if they'd sleep with him. What I've come to understand as "dirt bag behavior", where people think the world owes them something because they aren't where they wish they were, and in their mind justifies screwing others over. He was always out for himself first.

I eventually realized he'd been ripping me off for years on the weed. It kind of came out during covid when everything got weird, and money got tight for him in the ensuing restaurant industry crash. After figuring out what was going on I was right back to how I'd felt when we were much younger. He was taking advantage of my trust and my naivete. In his mind I had plenty of money to burn because I had a decent job. I ate more expensive food, ate out more, never complained about what he was charging me. So what if he takes a little for himself, right? He picked up on how pissed I was when the truth finally hit me, though we never formally discussed it. At the time I was caught between being feeling so betrayed it would make me nauseous wanting to be out of that apartment, and dreading going out on my own again, finding a new place, single income, bills, all that shit. A typical codependency response. When the time to renew the lease came around, he informed me he didn't want to resign anyways. He said "no real reason, just want to live on my own" when I asked what had changed. I just left it at that, and we parted ways.

I've been in my own place I rent for a few years now. My friend circles around gaming kind of interleave with each other, and he just drifted away to do his own thing. Life goes on. I wished him a happy birthday the other day on Facebook. Is he a bad person? I dunno. But I think I'm better without him in my life.....again.

Point of all of this for me I guess is that you have to be capable of going it alone, because alone beats feeling tormented or being used/abused. That's the price you pay for getting rid of influences in your life that hurt you in some way, is some amount of suffering. Whether that's people guilting you about your choices, you guilting yourself about your choices, watching relationships you honestly did value on some level go away or the pain and danger of getting out of a truly toxic relationship. Specific to me, alone has always seemed like the simplest and most straight forward way to operate. But some people don't do alone very well, and that means they make compromises so they aren't. I'm on the other side. I know what I will and won't put up with, and alone seems like a fair price to pay to not be part of something I don't like.

[Robot Parade Leader]

I appreciate the advice you're giving.

I basically have not talked to them since this happened. It's weird to me but .... I don't really see much of an alternative.
I know they're still doing their usual crap. Several of my other family members are benefiting from their BS/shady stuff. Drunk, etc.
Got my 5 year chip. Keeping it up, and basically doing better overall in that department. 

Weird basically having no contact with them (for now, possibly forever, but who knows).
They're awful. I can't deal with their BS. They aren't going to change or even acknowledge their problems.
It isn't fair, but I'm not sure what is.

[nenjin]

I hope things continue to improve for you. You hold all the cards now. If they value you they will come to you and ask why you left. And if they truly value you they'll ask what they can do to bring you back and stand by it.

Good luck sir.

[Robot Parade Leader]

So, obviously same parents with different flavor BS.

I have an uncle. He has a small amount of money, but not much after working his whole life. He is in his 70s, nearly 80s. He trusts me and wants me to be his general POA. Whatever. OK. He wants my mom to be his healthcare POA. Not ok. Not in anyone's best interest. Mom is a drunk who gambles and she's abusive among other things. He is making a stupid emotional decision that is bad for him. I also found out that she convinced him to cut out a provision in his (small amount) will to a special needs relative so she could be put in. (This is complete and utter bullshit as that special needs person did nothing wrong and she is gaining at their expense).

I do not want to deal with her. I do not have a problem looking after the uncle, but she is an issue. You don't let crazy near your health. You just don't. It's stupid. Also from my standpoint, I have flat out told this uncle this is a VERY stupid idea. I have explained with several examples some of the crap she has done and how she will NOT look after him. I am far enough away that he wants someone closer for health care POA while I handle the other stuff. He needs to get someone from his church or something.

I have been told I am primary POA (and when he dies executor) and can overrule her on most things except healthcare decisions. Good, because I flat out told him I am not "working with" her on anything. She is not to be trusted and I have flat out stated this to them both. The issue is that she could technically make a "healthcare" decision to stuff him in a nursing home if she found some corrupt doctor to do it. Where's the second opinion? That in turn would cost tons of money and wipe him out through medicaid spend down. From what I have been told, this means Mediciad takes all your assets except some exempt ones. The only way around that is a trust with a 5 year lookback period according to Uncle's lawyer, but he is not doing that.... I don't know why.

Bottom line:
1.) I want and need him to get rid of mom as POA for his own good. She has screwed over everyone and will screw him over too.
2.) He does not seem to be taking the Medicaid thing his lawyer said seriously. He needs to at least consider it.
3.) I'm pissed she somehow convinced him to screw over the special needs relative for her benefit. He needs to consider undoing this.
4.) I do not want to work with her for my own sake because she is infuriating (see that part about screwing over the special needs relative?). I do not want to say the hell with it and just walk away and not be POA for his sake, but I do not want to deal with her BS.

I do not understand the details of this stuff and "T" is not as reachable these days. How do I convince him that what he is doing is stupid, against his own interests, and needs to be seriously examined? If I fail to convince him, how do I walk away from this without burning bridges. "I want to help you but I can't work with or around her and I won't just watch her burn your life to the ground like she tried to do with mine."

Constructive thoughts appreciated. I realize there may be legal issues, but there are also emotional and psychological ones too.

[anewaname]

It is likely she is involved because of their longtime emotional bonds and you are involved to prevent her from abusing those emotional bonds (because everyone who cares about an addict knows they misbehave as soon as they are not being watched).

You should make sure he knows the reasons he chose you for your task, and her for her task. You don't need to know the reasons, he does... and there will be more than one reason.  Spend time with him when no one else is listening, so he is willing to speak freely. Start with asking why he chose you, and follow up with asking him if there where other reasons he chose you that he doesn't want to talk about now. If he can look clearly at you and answer, then take it to the next level... Ask about the reasons she is involved, and follow by asking if there are reasons she is involved that he doesn't want to talk about now. At this time, you will have him either knowing clearly why she is involved or he'll be getting all emotionally tangled. Tell him your worries about how she currently behaves ("currently", meaning in the last 15 or so years), just so he understands you are worried about upcoming problems with her involvement. Odds are he spends a lot of time thinking back to when they were young and that skews his view of her, and after a few days of comparing his view of the "old her" against the "current her", he might have clarifications on how things should be handled or at least say something that will make things less stressful for you.

From there on, ask about the trust agreement and on that, push him to help you understand why he disagrees with the lawyer on this (because presumably the lawyer's advice is good, so your uncle should be able to say why the lawyer's advice is bad).

During all of that, there may be times when he attempts to dodge or delay by needing to do something or trying to change the subject. Just stay on the subject matter and be patient until he gets his mind looking at it.

[Robot Parade Leader]

Yeah....

So I talked to him at his place.... Basically he dodged the question, "s" questions. Most if not all of them. He half answered some of them. At one point he calmly but matter of factly pretty much said it was enough talking about that.... Also their childhoods were not happy but ....

He chose me because he trusts me and realizes I actually have some clue what the hell I'm doing, or if I don't I find someone who actually does instead of relying on bullshit, but also I won't screw him over.

He chose her because she's close physically, or so he says. Also, nobody else seems too interested in doing it. Both he and his lawyer have said I'm there to keep her from abusing crap, if she tries.
This makes negative sense to me. If they both figure she's going to abuse crap then why the hell would you put her where she can abuse crap? I gave examples and he accepted them, of crap she did wrong, recently, in the past, and things she could screw up in the future. He at most says he can change his mind at any time, which I guess means writing a new will, and power of attorney documents. He absolutely knows I am worried about her involvement. So far little if any clarifications or solutions on how things should be handled from him.

I specifically gave an example he told me. She would not drive him to the doctor's office when it was not that far away. She had nothing else to do that day as she is retired. She told him she would, but she flaked THAT DAY. He managed to secure a ride from someone else, but yeah..... I pointed out how this is BS, because she is supposed to be "close" physically for healthcare stuff. I don't get how he does not see this right in front of his face, and with me explaining it. He states he has not told her I am the general POA yet either. He knows this is a flaming crapstorm waiting to happen.

The Medicaid stuff: He just does not seem to care. His answer is, "I guess if we get to that point we'll look at it then." ..... WTF? The whole point is to look at it now, because "then" will be too late. I tried to tell him about the 5 year look back thing his lawyer said with the trust stuff, but he said, "I don't remember him talking to me about that." I took one of the only days off work I have taken so I could be in his lawyer's office across the desk and sitting next to my uncle. He said it and he isn't the only one. https://www.medicaidplanningassistance.org/medicaid-look-back-period/#:~:text=The%20Look-Back%20Period%20begins%20the%20date%20of%20one%E2%80%99s,transactions%20between%20these%20dates%20are%20subject%20to%20review.

Worse yet, he showed me stuff his lawyer wrote, and I don't claim to get all of it, but I showed him a section that said if [my name] were unwilling or unable to fulfill the position, then the successor would be [mom's name]. He stated he did not intend to have that in there and seemed very shocked by it, because he was told it was "standard." I can be stupid but someone here once told me there's no such thing as standard with this stuff, and I can read. I told him that he should call his lawyer to have it fixed if it was a mistake. As it currently stands, if I bail, she gets the POA and executor control to abuse as much as she wants. This is an incredibly stupid position and a disadvantage that directly encourages her to harass me so I say the hell with it and leave so she gets to be in charge of all his stuff.

This is crap and setting up a conflict it looks like everyone knows is being set up to fail. I don't want to spend any time with my mom, at all. I don't care. I will never care. She's blown that shot. I just get the impression that somehow he is either intentionally or ... I don't know ... stupidly setting up a powderkeg situation to fail. Anyone, anyone at all but her. Someone who has some idea about anything and doesn't have a drinking and gambling problem or a history of abuse. This is almost not worth it, mostly cause of totally unnecessary the aggravation, you know "mom."

Basically he is acting like these problems either don't exist or are not a big deal. Medicare could wipe out just about all his assets if he ends up in a home without a trust. She could abuse those assets into a  casino or several bottles.

[anewaname]

Him not answering the questions is not a bad thing... he gave you the indicators as to why you and she are both to be involved, and it sounds like he was coherent.

He might not care much about his future finances. From his perspective, death might be "can't drive anymore" or too few things giving him joy.

If you're going to handle all of his finances, she may not have the ability to put him in a too-expensive home. If you have the only financial POA, then you control the purse-strings. Maybe talk with the lawyer directly, find out if he'll take you as a client to provide assistance with your POA role, giving advice and ensuring you stay within legal bounds, etc. Visit your uncle and tell him you want the trust thing started to protect the assets and that you want [special-needs relative] written back in, and when you tell him this, if his reply is not full agreement then stare him down for a dramatic-enough few seconds and without emotion, tell him "you are[emphasis on this word] asking me to keep [her] from taking control..." and then you pause with intent to interrupt his reply with "You're not dead yet, and the money needs to last until you do die." You need to form that context for him, that he's not dead yet and if he's not going to do the needed things, he should let you do it.

Worse yet, he showed me stuff his lawyer wrote, and I don't claim to get all of it, but I showed him a section that said if [my name] were unwilling or unable to fulfill the position, then the successor would be [mom's name]. He stated he did not intend to have that in there and seemed very shocked by it, because he was told it was "standard."

Your uncle probably gave the lawyer a hard time too... the lawyer may have put her down as second-choice because your uncle didn't come up with a third name as potential POA and didn't specifically exclude her. When someone becomes incapacitated, courts probably give POA to family first.

[Truean]

Not legal advice. No one here is a client. If you take legal advice off the internet, then you are stupid. One size does not fit all. Contact a lawyer licensed in your state/country if you have legal issues.
Please No quoting. Thank you. This is based entirely off the information that has been supplied here by others and should not be relied upon by anyone for anything.

Before anything else. True then; true now. Glad to see you growing still.

[reads all that.....] O wow.... You know this is all suspect as hell, right?

1.) "Standard," does not exist. Period. No exceptions, and least of all in probate court. I have seen fortunes spent correcting "simple will" mistakes on "cheaper" preprinted forms. I think my old boss liked charging way more to fix other people's mistakes in that garbage than he would have just doing a will/trust. This quote is music to my ears, "someone here once told me there's no such thing as standard with this stuff, and I can read." That was me telling you that. Hi. I can't tell you how many morons have tried to go in front of a judge and say, "Uh, I thought it was standard." Moron #1 says this, and is followed by Moron #2 saying the exact opposite is also "standard." Reading matters. I am glad to see you doing that.

This is not standard. I do not do that, and I have not seen anyone I work with do that. Let me ask you something, if it is "standard," then what happens if/when your mom cannot be healthcare POA? Who takes over for her if she is "unwilling or unable?" Is it you? If not, who? How is this determined? Is it the "same" as that section you quoted? If not, why not, and how is that "standard?" I have no idea why anyone would list the successor executor/POA/whatever with such a blatant conflict. I am assuming you have a copy of this, seeing as you are sort of quoting/paraphrasing it. Do not post the will/documents in public, but just think about that to yourself when you hear that nonsense. Having no ability (or I'm sorry, desire) to read the whole thing, there may be other issues which cannot be determined if there are "mistakes" like that....

2.) Untruth. I'm sorry but I call B.S. on uncle. If that was a drafting mistake in his original will right after it was made, he would have called up his lawyer and had it fixed. Especially if it was a drafting mistake he was completely unaware of. This has happened before, and it just got fixed as long as it was an honest drafting mistake (as opposed to somebody changed their mind for the umpteenth time, again, this week, and that revision costs $ so somebody finally makes up their mind). It can be a pain to get new witnesses/attestation and a certification where applicable, but on the rare occasion somebody legitimately messed up something in any office I was in, right after it was issued, we just fixed it/redid it. Whoever botched something may have gotten a stern talking to but.... If he does not want her 2nd in line.... This is fixable; if he does not fix it, then why not? Same reason he does not remove her entirely....

Additionally, I am wondering why any of this other nonsense is happening. Let me get this straight, she ... talked him into disinheriting a special needs relative so she.... could be put in the will.... That's messed up. I'm sorry but wow. I just can't imagine how that conversation must have went. Something smells rotten in Denmark here. You are not being told the whole story.

3.) Bypass for SNT Implementation Possibility (Special Needs Trust). Ask yourself and answer yourself quietly, if you are a substantial beneficiary/heir in his will? If not, why not (this is a lot of work and responsibility you will end up doing). If so, if/when you inherit things, you may consider establishing a special needs trust for the special needs relative. This is dependent upon several things. 1.) How big a pie slice mommy dearest managed to secure for herself in the will (thereby diverting funds from the special needs relative), 2.) If you can even possibly get anything sufficient to establish a special needs trust for the special needs relative, and 3.) Medicaid, etc.... Special needs trusts largely, legally shelter funds from Medicaid recovery for those with disabilities/special needs. This brings us to....

4.) Medicaid spend down/recovery. You are correct on the 5 year lookback period (generally) and that the idea is to plan ahead. No idea why he is not. This could endanger a lot and end up with the state paid long before you/anyone else. I am a little shocked his lawyer did not bring this up with him. Makes me wonder if he is being stubborn/in denial it might happen to him. I've seen it before.

"Medicare [but mostly Medicaid) could wipe out just about all his assets if he ends up in a home without a trust." Other programs might too. However, you also need to know if he is on traditional Medicare (Parts A, B, and D), or a "Medicare Advantage" (Part C) (usually worse) plan. If you stay in this role, you are going to have to get to know him and how he does stuff.

5.) Dealing with her. For whatever reason, uncle is unwilling to find somebody else to be healthcare POA. This makes no sense based upon what you have said. We called this, "setting up an avoidable conflict," as you previously indicated. Possibly unknowingly, uncle has put you in a hell of a position, by directly incentivizing her to get you to quit so she can rule. Frankly, is there a mechanism in writing for you to overrule her in this messed up situation (or are you just relying on state law, etc)? For that matter are there provisions requiring someone else to sign off on her healthcare decisions (e.g. a doctor or 3). Are you just supposed to rely on whatever legal mechanism (probate court, lawsuit etc), and if so will uncle's lawyer be handling that, presumably with the estate paying it?  If not, are you supposed to just somehow manage this yourself?

Recap: This is a mess.

"Standard," is a lie. This is not standard. You are not being told the whole truth. Depending on several variables, it might be possible to do something for special needs relative. Medicaid spend down is important. Dealing with your mom is going to be a challenge. That said, is all of this worth it to do? If not, withdrawing will have costs, familial, social, and probably being written out of whatever will, etc. If so, then prepare to deal with her as best you can knowing it will be a mess. Also, if you leave, she takes over, from what you are saying.... If you stay, then you will have to out think, outfox and outmaneuver her. This will involve matters including but most definitely not limited to paper trails. If he wakes up and actually (unlikely) sees the need to replace her and do something about Medicaid spenddown, then who would take her place? If she stays in that role, what is the check and balance on her? Several, reasons to be concerned. It is regrettable you got put in this situation and there is no easy way out.


Not legal advice. No one here is a client. If you take legal advice off the internet, then you are stupid. One size does not fit all. Contact a lawyer licensed in your state/country if you have legal issues.
Please No quoting. Thank you. This is based entirely off the information that has been supplied here by others and should not be relied upon by anyone for anything.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to be grumpy and work some more on Labor Day, due to a colleague's critical mass of stupid, but at least I'm getting credit for it this time.