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[McTraveller]

No worries. The one link I posted does show evidence that it's getting earlier though - so you did remember that part correctly!

EDIT: I had to look it up partially because my daughter is 9 and I'm like wait what? I don't recall our pediatrician talking about that yet... /sweating

[Maximum Spin]

With my limited understanding of biology I know that when a fetus forms, it's always female first. Then other hormones come in and cause male traits to develop, but the template it's using as a starting point is female biology.

This is very much inaccurate. A fetus in fact starts with two sets of tubing, one male and one female, and gonads that are neither. In males, the female tubing (Muellerian ducts) is supposed to disintegrate eventually, and in females the male tubing (Wolffian ducts) is supposed to disintegrate. So in other words, the "template" or "base" isn't one or the other; it's the starting point for both but also not quite fully either (since several parts of either sex still have to grow). In some cases, some parts of the tubing fail to disintegrate fully or other parts fail to grow properly, but this isn't usually considered a DSD and is not usually externally visible (eg, many men have a small remnant of the Muellerian duct attached to the testes, it has some name I don't immediately remember). It doesn't change the gametes the gonads will develop to produce either.

[MorleyDev]

Okay, actually doing some googling and that seems like more recent info, with the "female by default" model being the one believed in prior, and the old view hasn't been pushed out by the new one yet in social awareness so still gets repeated. I'm rather out of date on the latest literature then xD

Either way I'm not really thinking about genital development but brain development, if there's some underlying architectural 'XX' and 'XY' structure of the brain and how it expects the body it's piloting to be and if that could misalign with body development. If we start off as a 'blank' template that is later specialised, doesn't really change that concept...

tbh I'm more just thinking of a simplified model that could be used as a starting point to help cis people who are in that "I don't really get trans" category and "you don't need to get it, just accept it" doesn't work get their heads around it as a "thing that can happen".

[Maximum Spin]

[On claims about age of menarche declining]

I don't think these claims were fear-mongering per se, but wild misunderstandings. At least, the ones I remember. Average age of menarche varies between ethnic groups in the US, and the changing ethnic composition WAS bringing down the overall average - but not with any particular group significantly changing. So it was probably a combination of some possible degree of racial apprehension, and just completely misunderstanding what was going on. I guess it depends what you think of as "fear-mongering", but it's not what I would call it.

Either way I'm not really thinking about genital development but brain development, if there's some underlying architectural 'XX' and 'XY' structure of the brain and how it expects the body it's piloting to be and if that could misalign with body development. If we start off as a 'blank' template that is later specialised, doesn't really change that concept...

Have you ever read Testosterone Rex? As I understand it, there's considerable ongoing challenge to the idea that male and female brains differ significantly.

[MorleyDev]

The study I saw on age of puberty, they split it between ethic groups and it was a general trend in the USA amongst all but African Americans that it was starting earlier. It seems to be a global trend too, or at least a western one.

One study put forward was that it's related to the rise in obesity rates causing it to trigger earlier..

Conclusions. The apparent influence of early maturation on adult female overweight is largely a result of the influence of elevated relative weight on early maturation. Interventions to prevent and treat overweight should focus on girls before they begin puberty.

[Maximum Spin]

The study I saw on age of puberty, they split it between ethic groups and it was a general trend in the USA amongst all but African Americans that it was starting earlier. It seems to be a global trend too, or at least a western one.

Hm, well, okay. I remember reading that changes were nonsignificant after controlling for ethnicity, but I'm not familiar with that study.

[GadgetPatch]

Either way I'm not really thinking about genital development but brain development, if there's some underlying architectural 'XX' and 'XY' structure of the brain and how it expects the body it's piloting to be and if that could misalign with body development. If we start off as a 'blank' template that is later specialised, doesn't really change that concept...

tbh I'm more just thinking of a simplified model that could be used as a starting point to help cis people who are in that "I don't really get trans" category and "you don't need to get it, just accept it" doesn't work get their heads around it as a "thing that can happen".

Been revisiting a Human Behavioral Biology lecture series recently (by one of my favorite researchers in the field), and as of the mid 2010s there's plenty of research pointing to developmental differences between cishet, cis-queer, and trans bodies. And they tend to be complex, and the research is underfunded at best, or a side-effect of research on cis populations more often... but:

Things like how the speed of the inner-ear noise experienced when you plug your ears varies based on what sex you're attracted to, regardless of your sex. Things like phantom limb sensations for lost bodyparts (genitals, breasts) removed as part of cancer treatment, which are widely reported among cis populations, but nearly never among trans populations, including those who were (at the time) not aware they were trans. And things like "fixed action patterns" (unlearned lizard-brain reflexes) that are hard-coded physiological responses; for those that vary by sex, the bodies of trans populations tend to have the opposite responses, and this is seen before any hormone changes etc, which suggests it's developmental.

[Strongpoint]

Completely off topic, but strictly speaking is there even such a thing as a consensual surgical procedure on a child? Being a child automatically means informed consent is impossible and so it's always via a proxy such as a parent.

Really only line of debate is determining what's a reasonable thing to enforce on a child compared to what is best left delayed until they are old enough to make an informed decision and give consent. And that will always fluctuate with culture.

I especially dislike the idea of puberty blockers so a child may decide when they reach 18 years. All I can say is WTF?

Becoming an adult is not only living X years, it is also experiencing the hormonal storm and dealing with how it changes your personality.

[MorleyDev]

I...wasn't saying that as a reason to give puberty blockers? Aren't they pretty much used to stop the wrong puberty kicking in whilst preparing for the transitional hormones?

And again, it was not really on-topic and more a general observation on medicine. If a child can't consent for surgery they can't consent for medication either for the same reasons, either parents or doctors are imposing on the child for their best interest as a consequence of that.

[GadgetPatch]

I especially dislike the idea of puberty blockers so a child may decide when they reach 18 years. All I can say is WTF?

Becoming an adult is not only living X years, it is also experiencing the hormonal storm and dealing with how it changes your personality.

Yeah, okay, if I'm reading you right, this is an exceptionally weird take. To the point that I almost don't want to get involved.

But no, blockers are a humane, common sense, and entirely reversible way to afford trans children agency over their own bodies. Plenty of adults are insensitive to their body's hormones and don't undergo puberty, and they turn out just fine. The absence or presence of hormones and puberty don't magically turn you into a better decision maker. Ridiculous idea, and a worse policy.

(And yes, forcing trans-identified kids to undergo an unwanted puberty is not only unnecessary, but also weird and cruel.)

[Rose]

This is unrelated, but I love the new nickname.

[Strongpoint]

I especially dislike the idea of puberty blockers so a child may decide when they reach 18 years. All I can say is WTF?

Becoming an adult is not only living X years, it is also experiencing the hormonal storm and dealing with how it changes your personality.

Yeah, okay, if I'm reading you right, this is an exceptionally weird take. To the point that I almost don't want to get involved.

But no, blockers are a humane, common sense, and entirely reversible way to afford trans children agency over their own bodies. Plenty of adults are insensitive to their body's hormones and don't undergo puberty, and they turn out just fine. The absence or presence of hormones and puberty don't magically turn you into a better decision maker. Ridiculous idea, and a worse policy.

(And yes, forcing trans-identified kids to undergo an unwanted puberty is not only unnecessary, but also weird and cruel.)

Entirely reversible is debatableif we talk about the development of the brain and, by extension, personality. I believe that maturity requires experience of dealing with hormonal swings and sexual urges, it is an important part of growing up and transitioning from a child to an adult. Sure, some people don't go through this and are fine but their maturity curve is different.

Also, when someone has a mentality - I am not sure if I want to be a wo(man), experiencing becoming one may help decide. After all, children are neither men or women, they are boys and girls


And yes, forcing trans-identified kids to undergo an unwanted puberty is not only unnecessary, but also weird and cruel.

This part is true, but if medical professionals determine that the kid is indeed trans, why bother with the waiting period and don't go straight to desired hormones?

[McTraveller]

Eh, there are many "unwanted" things to which we subject people all the time, so that can't be the deciding criteria here.

[Rolan7]

The deciding criteria isn't just "unwanted", but also unnecessary.  You can argue that it's necessary but I don't think there's a convincing argument.  I'm not even sure I've heard it asserted before now.

But lets say Strongpoint is right and someone's brain cannot fully mature without experiencing a puberty.  Which puberty do they get- the one they seem to prefer, or the the one they don't?

Trick question.  Obviously to be a fully mature person, everyone must experience both puberties.  "experiencing becoming one may help decide".  The fact that they don't want it can't be a deciding criteria.  It will definitely be very traumatic for most children, and have permanent physiological effects on bone structure and voice, but only half what trans people already experience.

Or maybe that's horrific.  Instead we could offer them the puberty they prefer.  They won't always be correct, but it still reduces harm compared to no action.

End of hypothetical.  Fortunately I don't think we need to personally experience puberty in order to form an opinion on it.  We just need up to 16 years to mature, watching how puberty affects our peers.

[Egan_BW]

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that true maturity and wisdom could be something we'd need advanced transhumanist technology to achieve.

Some way of experiencing exactly what someone else has seems like it'd be a boon, at least.