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[NJW2000]

There are potential bastard flips in this game. At least one actual one, if Max is to be believed.

FoU wanted to die.

Anyone else seeing what I'm seeing?


Bare-bones night stuff:

Tric's alignment changed. Tric was befriended either by Jim or Knightwing.

Knightwing claims to have befriended Tric. Jim promised to do the weird thing that would 75% of the time result in him befriending Tric, provided Tric targeted me, which he probably did... I think I was disabled.

Weirdness here. Why the kill on Tric? Did Tric use the attract instead? Overdetermination?

Jim confirms Max's night action. Both claim Jim now has a powerful ability.


Knightwing. Why did you befriend the player that would leave the game once they were befriended? You could have actually confirmed your alignment with someone. Why didn't you?

[Knightwing64]

Oh. Well, I kinda…. forgot that. I chose Tric because I that if he got it, he would defend my innocence the most.

[ToonyMan]

( posting then reading peoples posts, of course Tric, the one I tried to befriend would die 0.0)


Ah, Jim. That’s no good you know? Staying mostly silent and then hammering somebody who turns out to be town?

That’s not a good look.

How that I think about it, Fallacy did say to be wary of people who were against him but didn’t vote him, which fits you perfectly til l the last second.

Add that to being uncharacteristically silent, and I believe you to be mafia or a third party, both of which we can’t have around.

:|

Is that the best you got?

There are potential bastard flips in this game. At least one actual one, if Max is to be believed.

FoU wanted to die.

Anyone else seeing what I'm seeing?


Bare-bones night stuff:

Tric's alignment changed. Tric was befriended either by Jim or Knightwing.

Knightwing claims to have befriended Tric. Jim promised to do the weird thing that would 75% of the time result in him befriending Tric, provided Tric targeted me, which he probably did... I think I was disabled.

Weirdness here. Why the kill on Tric? Did Tric use the attract instead? Overdetermination?

Jim confirms Max's night action. Both claim Jim now has a powerful ability.


Knightwing. Why did you befriend the player that would leave the game once they were befriended? You could have actually confirmed your alignment with someone. Why didn't you?

:|

In the same post you theorize that FoU's flip was a bastard flip while also saying Tric's alignment changed from being befriended when he would just leave the game as third-party instead.

You have to argue that he ALSO had a possible bastard flip or that someone converted him to town.

In addition, mafia don't kill Tric here ever. He very likely used his global attract he was gushing about.

[Knightwing64]

Oh.


Sry.

Also, wdym is that All I got, I thought that was a smart and reasonable accusation to make of Jim?

[ToonyMan]

Oh.


Sry.

Also, wdym is that All I got, I thought that was a smart and reasonable accusation to make of Jim?

It's possible but I'm not convinced.

Can you give thoughts on each player?

[NJW2000]

Toony: Right... sorry, not too sharp in the mornings, was confusing befriends and conversions. So you converted Tric, he presumably used the attract?

Huh... and he didn't leave the game. If befriends happening before kills and conversions, Knightwing looks VERY bad here. I'll look into that.

I'm not going to theorise about bastard flips that much here, it's an edge case, but not one with much explanatory power just yet.


Knightwing: why not someone with more sway over town? Tric doesn't usually persuade people, you must have seen that by now.

[Knightwing64]

I show more skill and now people want reasonable decisions 0.0


I dunno, I just tried to befriend Tric because I thought he would defend me the hardest, I didn’t even remember that he got to leave once he got befriended or whatever.


I mean, you can vote me, but you will all miss my handsome face when I’m gone.

I would say a cool anime quote but I’m in a parking lot and My head hurts

[NJW2000]

Ok, asking for clarification on this, but I'm pretty sure NQT just confirmed wincons are checked at the end of the night - thus after any recruitment.

Weird, but something we can work with.

I show more skill and now people want reasonable decisions 0.0

[MALDING INTENSIFIES]

Your play is better this game though.

[ToonyMan]

Toony: Right... sorry, not too sharp in the mornings, was confusing befriends and conversions. So you converted Tric, he presumably used the attract?

Huh... and he didn't leave the game. If befriends happening before kills and conversions, Knightwing looks VERY bad here. I'll look into that.

I'm not going to theorise about bastard flips that much here, it's an edge case, but not one with much explanatory power just yet.


Knightwing: why not someone with more sway over town? Tric doesn't usually persuade people, you must have seen that by now.

I don't believe FoU's flip is fake. I don't agree with their behavior (or coloring players weird), but their stubbornness looks like annoyed town on a reread and their reads list feels genuine. I'm disappointed but also confident they were town.

I think it's pretty simple what happened here.

Tric attracted every player.
Knightwing befriended Tric.
I converted Tric to town.
Mafia tried to kill a player, it got redirected to Tric.
Tric doesn't win as TP because wincons aren't checked until after conversions apparently.

I think KW is telling the truth about their action here.

I'm mildly suspicious that KW and Jim both have befriender abilities, but it's not strong reasoning.

I have no idea what's going on with Max and the prize Jim got.

NJW continues to spew paranoia.

How many mafia are left? Two mafia means we're already mylo, but that feels wrong. I feel like this has to be a one mafia setup with probably a second third-party.

[NJW2000]

You really think FoU wanted to live? There was zero chance of eliminating you, four or five people ready to flip me, and he thought I was insanely and obviously scummy.

His play sometimes looks stubborn and weak, but is he really THAT pigheaded?

 I am slightly reassured about KW for obvious reasons.

[ToonyMan]

FoU doesn't have a lot of town experience. I think it caused them to make mistakes like voting me over NJW or not claiming at L-1. I don't really think he was trying to kill himself willingly, that's just dumb even as a mally and I like to exaggerate when annoyed myself.

FoU's progression from building a case on NJW and me to voting me looked natural and not staged to crucify themselves. Why bother if you're trying to die?

His ability to evolve a third of the players would have been more beneficial for town than mafia so I'm not sure he'd even want to use it as non-town. This goes against their statement where FoU said they'd prove their ability on D2. Unless you want to argue their entire flip is fake like Max has claimed.

[NJW2000]

Could be an entirely fake flip… if not, as scum, he’d still have a mafiakill and a chance to evolve or protect his partner, though I don’t know what from.


The past half dozen games here have been telling players to trust their daygame, assume bastard and counterintuitive modding rather than reliable inspects/flips and second guessable mods. This is a procgen mafia, so I wouldn’t expect everything to make intuitive sense. But people are still people, and FoU doesn’t seem like town trying to get results.

[ToonyMan]

Could be an entirely fake flip… if not, as scum, he’d still have a mafiakill and a chance to evolve or protect his partner, though I don’t know what from.


The past half dozen games here have been telling players to trust their daygame, assume bastard and counterintuitive modding rather than reliable inspects/flips and second guessable mods. This is a procgen mafia, so I wouldn’t expect everything to make intuitive sense. But people are still people, and FoU doesn’t seem like town trying to get results.

Says the guy who was mechanically trying to catch Knightwing.

FoU's evolve hits a random third of the players by the way. They would have no control over who got it, and there's more town than mafia.

[Maximum Spin]

I don't believe Fallacy's flip is fake, but I cannot currently explain why. Just trust me that there's a good reason.

Knightwing, while your accusation of Jim isn't totally unreasonable (although I still townread Jim more than halfway), I can't support lynching Jim unless you believe he is solo scum.

[Maximum Spin]

Let me add this.

Jim, according to the source generator, what you saw is the only way the last several words of that can happen. Infer everything accordingly.