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Who should be the God of this world?

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Author Topic: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)  (Read 15741 times)

King Zultan

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #225 on: October 02, 2021, 02:43:02 am »

You probably just find some rocks near the camp rather than trying to go back for your old ones.
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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #226 on: October 02, 2021, 04:20:46 am »

If you want to get taught, the thing to do is sit within sight and try to do the thing you want to be taught to do, looking as intent as possible and failing really badly. This will cause the same mental experience in onlookers that you probably get watching someone who doesn't know how to use a computer try ineffectually to use a computer.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #227 on: October 02, 2021, 05:32:59 pm »

Remember, the Old Guy is still around and respected because he knows how to make stuff with rocks.  It's possible he doesn't want to share that knowledge, because its the reason he's respected.  If you know how to do something he doesn't and you show him, then he'll be more likely to share his knowledge.

ConscriptFive

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #228 on: October 02, 2021, 08:11:58 pm »

Glad to hear Hobbes was all wrong about the "State of Nature."

These primitives seem to have taken you on, so you got that going for you.  Now here's the tough part: if they really are straight paleolithic, they aren't going anywhere fast.  Seriously, archaelogists have discovered that cavemen stayed cavemen for thousands of years.  Dozens of generations in the same caves, with no real 'progress' so to speak.

So if you're serious about "restarting civilization," you're going to need to be the change you want to see in the world.

Of course the tricky part is finding something both feasible and demonstrably useful.  I mean, we could introduce basic sanitation based on germ theory, but it'll take a few years until you can brag, "Hey, did you notice no one has shit themselves to death since I imposed all those lifestyle changes years ago?  You're welcome."

The fastest way to a man's heart is their stomach, so I'd start with cooking.  (I mean, are they at least cooking their food over the fire yet?  If not, boy have you got a treat for them.)  Remember when we had you make a waddle-and-daub shelter wall?   Now use that know-how make a little oven.  Make a conical tandoor oven, and show you new family how to cook some food.  (Now this oven is really your first prototype for a kiln/furnace, but we'll work up to that.)

Now that they've seen you build something useful, figure out what they want to do next.  Do they want to try to learn how to smoke food for preservation?  Do they want to build adobe homes?  Or do they want to learn how to play with fire?

A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #229 on: October 02, 2021, 10:21:28 pm »

Actually, the so-called “cavemen” didn’t actually live in caves.  All of the evidence points to caves being used only for cultural and religious purposes, as well as a place to deposit the dead before burial was invented.  Also, cave are often inhabited by large predators.  Instead, most “cavemen” probably lived in dwellings similar to the one that Stirk is currently at.

That’s all I have for now.  I need to go watch some videos on the topic of “earth ovens”, in case it turns out that making them out of wattle and daub is a Bad Idea(tm)…
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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #230 on: October 02, 2021, 10:47:53 pm »

Actually, the so-called “cavemen” didn’t actually live in caves.  All of the evidence points to caves being used only for cultural and religious purposes, as well as a place to deposit the dead before burial was invented.  Also, cave are often inhabited by large predators.  Instead, most “cavemen” probably lived in dwellings similar to the one that Stirk is currently at.
That's very much beyond the limits of what we can say with our present knowledge. That line is usually peddled by the same kind of people who insist that all the human bones covered in knife marks that have been broken open for their marrow were just ritually defleshed for religious reasons and definitely not at all cannibalism. Archaeology, in general, is an unreliable field prone to fads, individual flights of fancy, and competing paradigms; I would not advise trusting anything you read in popular science books on the subject, or even most journal articles. There are too many people married to the feeling of thinking they're smarter than everyone else and willing to write whatever will back them up.
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #231 on: October 03, 2021, 12:22:02 am »

Actually, the so-called “cavemen” didn’t actually live in caves.  All of the evidence points to caves being used only for cultural and religious purposes, as well as a place to deposit the dead before burial was invented.  Also, cave are often inhabited by large predators.  Instead, most “cavemen” probably lived in dwellings similar to the one that Stirk is currently at.
That's very much beyond the limits of what we can say with our present knowledge. That line is usually peddled by the same kind of people who insist that all the human bones covered in knife marks that have been broken open for their marrow were just ritually defleshed for religious reasons and definitely not at all cannibalism. Archaeology, in general, is an unreliable field prone to fads, individual flights of fancy, and competing paradigms; I would not advise trusting anything you read in popular science books on the subject, or even most journal articles. There are too many people married to the feeling of thinking they're smarter than everyone else and willing to write whatever will back them up.
Interesting, do you have any evidence for long term inhabitation of caves?


Also, I watched a few videos on earthen ovens.  You’re going to need the following.

1.  Clay
2.  Sand
3.  Dried grass.
4.  Thin pliable branches (willow or birch should work best).
5.  Additional material to weave with.
6.  Some water.

Note 1. This is just the stuff to make the oven.  Not to cook in it.

Note 2.  I’m assuming that you can do basketweaving pretty well.

Note 3.  The oven needs to be protected from the elements (particularly rain), both during and after it’s construction.

The first step is to gather your material and find a place for the oven.

Once you’ve done this, you should begin mixing sand and clay in about a 50/50 ratio.  You can mix them together by placing them an the ground and mashing them with your feet.  You want a consistency that is damp and easy to mold, but holds together well and isn’t runny.  You can add water if you need to, but remember that it’s better to have to add more water again then to have to add more clay and sand.

Once you have this made,  use it to create a layer on the ground, a few centimeters thick,  where you want your oven.  The main part should be in the shape of a circle, and there should be a rectangle jutting off of it where the mouth of the oven will go (the mouth of the oven should be smaller in width than the oven itself, but stilllarge enough that you can get things in and out).  This will be the floor of the oven.

Once this is done,  start assembling a frame for the oven out of the pliable branches (remember to strip them of twigs and leaves first).  Once this is done, weave in more branches and/or other material until there aren’t any holes left except for the door.  What you are after is something that looks a but like an igloo and (excepting the door) doesn’t have any holes large enough for material to fall through.  Note by the way, that the top of your entrance tunnel must be between 60 and 65 percent of the height of the oven, otherwise the oven won’t work properly.

The next step is to place more of the clay/sand mixture around and on top of the oven.  A layer a few centimeters thick should suffice.

Next, you will need to make some “cob”.  To make the cob, do what you did to make the clay/sand mixture, but add some dried grass (you may need to reduce the amount of sand slightly).

Once you have the cob, use it to create another layer (again a few centimeters thick) around and on top of the previous layer.  Make sure that the new layer adheres well to the old layer (don’t wait for the old layer to dry out before adding the new layer.  You might also want to score the surface of the old layer).

Next, you will want to allow the oven to dry out as much as possible.  This may take a few days…

Once, it’s dry enough, build a small fire in it (not that this will set the framework and basketry on fire.  This is normal.  You only needed them to form to inner chamber and keep the oven from collapsing while it was being built).  Continue making small fires until the oven is dried out.  Hopefully, there won’t be any large cracks or pieces falling off.  Small cracks are fine (you can patch them with some of the 50/50 clay/sand mixture.  If you did everything right, the outside of the oven should be relatively hard and sturdy (note, however, that it still won’t be as hard as rock -just close to it-, and it’ll still dissolve in the rain).

Congratulations on your new oven.

I still need to think about what tools you need.  All the videos I saw were using tools that (mostly) had metal in them to operate the oven and cook the food.

That’s all for now!
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King Zultan

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #232 on: October 03, 2021, 01:16:56 am »

What about something like that paddle thing they use in pizza ovens?
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #233 on: October 03, 2021, 01:34:09 am »

What about something like that paddle thing they use in pizza ovens?

That’s one of the necessary items.  It’s called a “peel”, and it’s used for other things too.  I was more concerned about the tools that use metal.

Come to think of it,  he should be able to make flatbread (and even sourdough starter isn’t that hard to make,  so he should be able to make sourdough bread).  The main problem is, how is he going to make flour?  He may need to invent the mano and metate (or possibly the quern).
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King Zultan

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #234 on: October 03, 2021, 01:38:58 am »

Don't we first need a grain that can be turned into bread before we can make bread?
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #235 on: October 03, 2021, 01:43:03 am »

Don't we first need a grain that can be turned into bread before we can make bread?

Yes.  Yes we do.  We could also use corn (maize), but he’d have to learn how to nixtamalize it, though.
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King Zultan

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #236 on: October 03, 2021, 02:01:27 am »

What about acorns, pretty sure you can make a bread like thing from their flour.
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #237 on: October 03, 2021, 02:30:01 am »

What about acorns, pretty sure you can make a bread like thing from their flour.

That’s another possibility.  According to Pliny the Elder, it can even be used to make bread.  He’d have to learn to leech out the tannins, though.
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Kashyyk

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #238 on: October 03, 2021, 02:54:16 am »

One way to leach the tannins is to stick them in a basket/ bag and wash them in the river until they stop coloring the water.
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Restarting Civilization from Scratch- With the Help of a Forum (SG)
« Reply #239 on: October 03, 2021, 03:02:47 am »

Also, I’m thinking that a quern isn’t really that much of a leap beyond a mano and metate.  Maybe he should just make a quern.
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