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[Maximum Spin]

Interesting, do you have any evidence for long term inhabitation of caves?

"Long-term inhabitation" is a tricky concept to prove, and, like I said, the evidence available does not really stretch that far. However, there is definitely strong evidence in some caves for ongoing industry and food preparation, which is more consistent with the idea that they were used as homes than the idea that they were ritual sites. Fa Hien in Sri Lanka, Mladech in Czechia, and Klasies River in South Africa are all examples. In general, if people weren't living in these caves for long periods of time, it's difficult to explain why they would have accumulated so much of the debris of human undertakings there. It is possible to come up with elaborate explanations, which archaeologists very much like to do, but Occam's razor applies.

ETA: Also, you guys know that bread isn't really that great, right? If he manages to implement large-scale farming, the calories per acre of wheat would be worth it, but right now it's probably in his best interest to eat tubers.

[Stirk]

You probably just find some rocks near the camp rather than trying to go back for your old ones.

I was told I need super special rocks if I'm going to make a viable tool. The rocks near camp arn't even remotely cherty.

If you want to get taught, the thing to do is sit within sight and try to do the thing you want to be taught to do, looking as intent as possible and failing really badly. This will cause the same mental experience in onlookers that you probably get watching someone who doesn't know how to use a computer try ineffectually to use a computer.

Oh then I guess terrible rock choice actually works great. I got two random rocks and start slapping them together. It seems to have worked not just for the old man but for everyone in the camp! They all cringed and look at me like I'm an idiot. I'm getting advice from all directions. I don't really understand anything they're saying but their arm motions and demonstrations are clear enough. Someone handed me two different rocks.

End result after this training session is a kinda oval shape rock with moderately sharp edges. The old man finished his work much quicker than I did. I'm not sure if it is really a knife but I think I got the basics.

...Its really embarrassing that I'm the one getting schooled by cavemen honestly.

Remember, the Old Guy is still around and respected because he knows how to make stuff with rocks.  It's possible he doesn't want to share that knowledge, because its the reason he's respected.  If you know how to do something he doesn't and you show him, then he'll be more likely to share his knowledge.

I don't think it is some secret art of stone crafting. Mostly because he was already doing it in front of me just fine when I came in to camp. I think its more of a "hey there is a stranger in my work/personal space what is your problem" sort of thing.

By the way I noticed that some of his beard hairs are actually dark at the roots. So I think they have some sort of hair dye or maybe bleach given the color. Add that to the tech list! Invading his personal space wasn't for nothing!

Glad to hear Hobbes was all wrong about the "State of Nature."

These primitives seem to have taken you on, so you got that going for you.  Now here's the tough part: if they really are straight paleolithic, they aren't going anywhere fast.  Seriously, archaelogists have discovered that cavemen stayed cavemen for thousands of years.  Dozens of generations in the same caves, with no real 'progress' so to speak.

So if you're serious about "restarting civilization," you're going to need to be the change you want to see in the world.

Of course the tricky part is finding something both feasible and demonstrably useful.  I mean, we could introduce basic sanitation based on germ theory, but it'll take a few years until you can brag, "Hey, did you notice no one has shit themselves to death since I imposed all those lifestyle changes years ago?  You're welcome."

The fastest way to a man's heart is their stomach, so I'd start with cooking.  (I mean, are they at least cooking their food over the fire yet?  If not, boy have you got a treat for them.)  Remember when we had you make a waddle-and-daub shelter wall?   Now use that know-how make a little oven.  Make a conical tandoor oven, and show you new family how to cook some food.  (Now this oven is really your first prototype for a kiln/furnace, but we'll work up to that.)

Now that they've seen you build something useful, figure out what they want to do next.  Do they want to try to learn how to smoke food for preservation?  Do they want to build adobe homes?  Or do they want to learn how to play with fire?

To be fair they do have those dogs that go after people people. Now that I'm looking at them they're sitting around the camp instead of joining everyone at the fire. I could be the one exception that proves the rule or something.

I think they've got roasted meat figured out but don't really have any evidence for it. It is mostly just the way they're sitting around the fire that makes me think they got it figured out.

Actually, the so-called “cavemen” didn’t actually live in caves.  All of the evidence points to caves being used only for cultural and religious purposes, as well as a place to deposit the dead before burial was invented.  Also, cave are often inhabited by large predators.  Instead, most “cavemen” probably lived in dwellings similar to the one that Stirk is currently at.

That’s all I have for now.  I need to go watch some videos on the topic of “earth ovens”, in case it turns out that making them out of wattle and daub is a Bad Idea(tm)…

That's very much beyond the limits of what we can say with our present knowledge. That line is usually peddled by the same kind of people who insist that all the human bones covered in knife marks that have been broken open for their marrow were just ritually defleshed for religious reasons and definitely not at all cannibalism. Archaeology, in general, is an unreliable field prone to fads, individual flights of fancy, and competing paradigms; I would not advise trusting anything you read in popular science books on the subject, or even most journal articles. There are too many people married to the feeling of thinking they're smarter than everyone else and willing to write whatever will back them up.

There is a cave right by the creek I could check I guess. My miraculous transportation would certainly be a boon to archeology if I had any idea where I was or what was going on.

Wait that bone thing sounds exactly like the bone they handed me. I was briefly terrified until I remembered it had deer skin on it.

Unless that was added later...

Interesting, do you have any evidence for long term inhabitation of caves?


Also, I watched a few videos on earthen ovens.  You’re going to need the following.

1.  Clay
2.  Sand
3.  Dried grass.
4.  Thin pliable branches (willow or birch should work best).
5.  Additional material to weave with.
6.  Some water.

Note 1. This is just the stuff to make the oven.  Not to cook in it.

Note 2.  I’m assuming that you can do basketweaving pretty well.

Note 3.  The oven needs to be protected from the elements (particularly rain), both during and after it’s construction.

The first step is to gather your material and find a place for the oven.

Once you’ve done this, you should begin mixing sand and clay in about a 50/50 ratio.  You can mix them together by placing them an the ground and mashing them with your feet.  You want a consistency that is damp and easy to mold, but holds together well and isn’t runny.  You can add water if you need to, but remember that it’s better to have to add more water again then to have to add more clay and sand.

Once you have this made,  use it to create a layer on the ground, a few centimeters thick,  where you want your oven.  The main part should be in the shape of a circle, and there should be a rectangle jutting off of it where the mouth of the oven will go (the mouth of the oven should be smaller in width than the oven itself, but stilllarge enough that you can get things in and out).  This will be the floor of the oven.

Once this is done,  start assembling a frame for the oven out of the pliable branches (remember to strip them of twigs and leaves first).  Once this is done, weave in more branches and/or other material until there aren’t any holes left except for the door.  What you are after is something that looks a but like an igloo and (excepting the door) doesn’t have any holes large enough for material to fall through.  Note by the way, that the top of your entrance tunnel must be between 60 and 65 percent of the height of the oven, otherwise the oven won’t work properly.

The next step is to place more of the clay/sand mixture around and on top of the oven.  A layer a few centimeters thick should suffice.

Next, you will need to make some “cob”.  To make the cob, do what you did to make the clay/sand mixture, but add some dried grass (you may need to reduce the amount of sand slightly).

Once you have the cob, use it to create another layer (again a few centimeters thick) around and on top of the previous layer.  Make sure that the new layer adheres well to the old layer (don’t wait for the old layer to dry out before adding the new layer.  You might also want to score the surface of the old layer).

Next, you will want to allow the oven to dry out as much as possible.  This may take a few days…

Once, it’s dry enough, build a small fire in it (not that this will set the framework and basketry on fire.  This is normal.  You only needed them to form to inner chamber and keep the oven from collapsing while it was being built).  Continue making small fires until the oven is dried out.  Hopefully, there won’t be any large cracks or pieces falling off.  Small cracks are fine (you can patch them with some of the 50/50 clay/sand mixture.  If you did everything right, the outside of the oven should be relatively hard and sturdy (note, however, that it still won’t be as hard as rock -just close to it-, and it’ll still dissolve in the rain).

Congratulations on your new oven.

I still need to think about what tools you need.  All the videos I saw were using tools that (mostly) had metal in them to operate the oven and cook the food.

That’s all for now!

So it is a lot like the wattle and daub hut! Thanks for doing all that research.

For note 2: I've only really made one basket. It was mediocre. I'm nonetheless very proud of it and willing to do more basket things.

For note 3: Should I make a house for it first? Or make it in the cave? Or just like bury it in sticks if it gets cloudy? Come to think of it should I be making it down in their camp or my home? I'm not really sure how long I'm welcome here.

Otherwise I think I could get that done...tomorrow probably. I can do it with pine branches too right? Or maybe the vine? Because I really haven't seen any birch around unless that is what the tribe uses for its baskets and they have a stockpile somewhere.

What about something like that paddle thing they use in pizza ovens?

That’s one of the necessary items.  It’s called a “peel”, and it’s used for other things too.  I was more concerned about the tools that use metal.

Come to think of it,  he should be able to make flatbread (and even sourdough starter isn’t that hard to make,  so he should be able to make sourdough bread).  The main problem is, how is he going to make flour?  He may need to invent the mano and metate (or possibly the quern).

My sandwich future is looking brighter!

Don't we first need a grain that can be turned into bread before we can make bread?

Yes.  Yes we do.  We could also use corn (maize), but he’d have to learn how to nixtamalize it, though.

I haven't actually seen any corn so far

What about acorns, pretty sure you can make a bread like thing from their flour.

Haven't seen any acorns either

Interesting, do you have any evidence for long term inhabitation of caves?

"Long-term inhabitation" is a tricky concept to prove, and, like I said, the evidence available does not really stretch that far. However, there is definitely strong evidence in some caves for ongoing industry and food preparation, which is more consistent with the idea that they were used as homes than the idea that they were ritual sites. Fa Hien in Sri Lanka, Mladech in Czechia, and Klasies River in South Africa are all examples. In general, if people weren't living in these caves for long periods of time, it's difficult to explain why they would have accumulated so much of the debris of human undertakings there. It is possible to come up with elaborate explanations, which archaeologists very much like to do, but Occam's razor applies.

ETA: Also, you guys know that bread isn't really that great, right? If he manages to implement large-scale farming, the calories per acre of wheat would be worth it, but right now it's probably in his best interest to eat tubers.

Ok bread by itself isn't that great. Could I make something like a cookie or pie or other pastry with the berries and theoretically existing apples? If the goal is to make something tasty to make them like me. Oh pancakes would be pretty good with those too! If I could get some maple syrup I'm pretty sure I could get all of them to die for me.

[A_Curious_Cat]

Willows can often be found near water.  Also, you could just find out what the young woman is using, and use that (provided that it’s sturdy enough).

[Maximum Spin]

Actually, maple syrup is extremely doable for you. Can you identify maple trees? They are broadleaf trees with big slightly hand-shaped leaves that make you think of Canada. In principle, any maple tree will do for making syrup, but sugar maples have the highest sugar content and are therefore best, with the black maple apparently second-best... until you have some candidate trees, I won't bother explaining the detailed differences. Note that both of those trees are found on the eastern half of the North American continent, with almost all of their range being east of the Mississippi. If you do find such a tree, though, it's simply a matter of making a divot in the bark, collecting sap, and boiling it down. Modern technology helps in many ways, but you could make do. You would need to work on your pottery to get a suitable container.

A tip on the oven: Consider making some charcoal, by taking a pile of wood, covering it in earth except for a very small air-hole, and setting it on fire. Because of the restricted oxygen supply, most of the wood will not burn, but will break down into charcoal and tar under the heat. (The tar will flow to the bottom, you may be able to collect some, it has uses, but is not our primary interest right now.) Stay away from this as it will produce carbon monoxide. Over time, if you do this a lot, you may learn how to better control the process by making new air holes or covering up old ones to keep the fire burning exactly the right amount to convert as much wood as possible while burning as little as possible, but for now, you just want to be good enough. Charcoal will burn much hotter than wood in the same conditions, and can be used to vitrify clay, making it nonporous and therefore water-resistant. (Under the right conditions, a wood fire can reach the same temperatures, but charcoal makes it easier.) The best charcoal is black and mostly retains the structure of wood without feeling like wood at all. You should remove any unburnt wood from it, as well as brown charcoal that falls apart easily, which is a lower grade and can still be used for burning things when lower temperatures are desired.
Vitrifying your oven as you build it would make it much more resilient - you might be able to do this by constructing a shell and burning charcoal inside it until the inside layer forms a glassy surface (that's what "vitrified" means), then removing the unvitrified material from the outside, building the rest of the oven out of normal clay, and putting the vitrified shell over it. You should also use charcoal when firing pottery vessels. I will teach you how to build a good kiln... later. For now, I just hope you remember the "clamp" concept I mentioned before.

See if you can get people to help you make charcoal, by making some, then showing off how it burns. Then maybe gather some clay, show off the clay, start making bricks, see if people are interested in doing that too. Really get some community involvement in the whole pottery thing.

[A_Curious_Cat]

Two additional things:

1.  If heated, the tar will harden into rosin.  This can be used to more firmly secure stone tools (such as spearheads, axeheads, etc.) to their hafts (I.e. shafts).  For example, you can brush some tar on the base of a spears’ spearhead and then “roast” it over a fire until the tar hardens into rosin.

2.  If firewood gets wet, it can rot and then you have to throw it out.  If charcoal gets wet, all you have to do is let it dry it out, and it’s still good to go.

3.  Cooking with charcoal is significantly more efficient than cooking with firewood.

4.  If you have metal, you might want to consider making a simple wok stove (which actually requires charcoal to function), and a round-bottom wok, but that’s probably for the future.

[King Zultan]

Have you seen any kind of tree nut on the ground, or in the trees?

[A_Curious_Cat]

Have you seen any kind of tree nut on the ground, or in the trees?

It looks like they’re still in the Stone Age.  I highly doubt there are any arboralists running around.

[ConscriptFive]

If you build it at/near their village, you've got a few things going for you:

1. You can "sell" it as a gift to the tribe.
2. Gives you an excuse to hangout with the tribe and enjoy their protection/hospitality while you work on it.
3. Could draw the interest of potential apprentices.

[King Zultan]

Have you seen any kind of tree nut on the ground, or in the trees?

It looks like they’re still in the Stone Age.  I highly doubt there are any arboralists running around.

I meant for him personally to look out for the nuts, using his advanced mind instead of relying on cavemen.

[A_Curious_Cat]

Have you seen any kind of tree nut on the ground, or in the trees?

It looks like they’re still in the Stone Age.  I highly doubt there are any arboralists running around.

I meant for him personally to look out for the nuts, using his advanced mind instead of relying on cavemen.

Whooosh!

[Stirk]

Willows can often be found near water.  Also, you could just find out what the young woman is using, and use that (provided that it’s sturdy enough).

Presumably they know about basket making more than me! I'll see what I can find out.

Looks like she's using pine needles! Don't seem sturdy but they are everywhere.

Actually, maple syrup is extremely doable for you. Can you identify maple trees? They are broadleaf trees with big slightly hand-shaped leaves that make you think of Canada. In principle, any maple tree will do for making syrup, but sugar maples have the highest sugar content and are therefore best, with the black maple apparently second-best... until you have some candidate trees, I won't bother explaining the detailed differences. Note that both of those trees are found on the eastern half of the North American continent, with almost all of their range being east of the Mississippi. If you do find such a tree, though, it's simply a matter of making a divot in the bark, collecting sap, and boiling it down. Modern technology helps in many ways, but you could make do. You would need to work on your pottery to get a suitable container.

A tip on the oven: Consider making some charcoal, by taking a pile of wood, covering it in earth except for a very small air-hole, and setting it on fire. Because of the restricted oxygen supply, most of the wood will not burn, but will break down into charcoal and tar under the heat. (The tar will flow to the bottom, you may be able to collect some, it has uses, but is not our primary interest right now.) Stay away from this as it will produce carbon monoxide. Over time, if you do this a lot, you may learn how to better control the process by making new air holes or covering up old ones to keep the fire burning exactly the right amount to convert as much wood as possible while burning as little as possible, but for now, you just want to be good enough. Charcoal will burn much hotter than wood in the same conditions, and can be used to vitrify clay, making it nonporous and therefore water-resistant. (Under the right conditions, a wood fire can reach the same temperatures, but charcoal makes it easier.) The best charcoal is black and mostly retains the structure of wood without feeling like wood at all. You should remove any unburnt wood from it, as well as brown charcoal that falls apart easily, which is a lower grade and can still be used for burning things when lower temperatures are desired.
Vitrifying your oven as you build it would make it much more resilient - you might be able to do this by constructing a shell and burning charcoal inside it until the inside layer forms a glassy surface (that's what "vitrified" means), then removing the unvitrified material from the outside, building the rest of the oven out of normal clay, and putting the vitrified shell over it. You should also use charcoal when firing pottery vessels. I will teach you how to build a good kiln... later. For now, I just hope you remember the "clamp" concept I mentioned before.

See if you can get people to help you make charcoal, by making some, then showing off how it burns. Then maybe gather some clay, show off the clay, start making bricks, see if people are interested in doing that too. Really get some community involvement in the whole pottery thing.

I know what a Canadian flag looks like! I'd still consider myself hopeless at identifying plants but even I can get that one.

Unless there are like other trees with the same general shape. Then I might actually be in trouble I guess.

I might have poisoned the well a bit by acting like an idiot earlier. I tried out your charcoal technique but that just got my audience into the "No this is how you make a fire" instead of marveling at my modern wisdom. Which is fair since putting dirt on something I want to set on fire probably makes me look like an idiot without context. Their helpfulness made it hard to get anything functional done. I'll probably have to make some samples back home to show off.

Speaking of getting functional things done is there any way I can make some kind of shovel? It sounds like I'm going to have to move a lot of dirt and stuff with my hands if I don't have one. Its kind of annoying.

Two additional things:

1.  If heated, the tar will harden into rosin.  This can be used to more firmly secure stone tools (such as spearheads, axeheads, etc.) to their hafts (I.e. shafts).  For example, you can brush some tar on the base of a spears’ spearhead and then “roast” it over a fire until the tar hardens into rosin.

2.  If firewood gets wet, it can rot and then you have to throw it out.  If charcoal gets wet, all you have to do is let it dry it out, and it’s still good to go.

3.  Cooking with charcoal is significantly more efficient than cooking with firewood.

4.  If you have metal, you might want to consider making a simple wok stove (which actually requires charcoal to function), and a round-bottom wok, but that’s probably for the future.

1 sounds like what I did to catch birds! Assuming it is the same general technique I think I can figure it out.

Others are good to know. I don't have metal (except the maybe copper rock) but I could run into rain any day now.

Have you seen any kind of tree nut on the ground, or in the trees?

I have not! Not unless pine cones count. I've seen some pine cones. I'm not actually sure if they are nuts or not. Like I said earlier I'm still really bad at plants. If they are then yes pine cones are everywhere.

It looks like they’re still in the Stone Age.  I highly doubt there are any arboralists running around.

They do build a lot of stuff out of wood. I'm sure at least one of them really likes trees.

If you build it at/near their village, you've got a few things going for you:

1. You can "sell" it as a gift to the tribe.
2. Gives you an excuse to hangout with the tribe and enjoy their protection/hospitality while you work on it.
3. Could draw the interest of potential apprentices.

Alright! In/around the tribe it is!

It is getting late. I say goodbye to everyone. They still don't understand me but the general motion of getting up and getting ready to walk away is pretty clear. One of the hunters leads me to the dogs. He puts out his hand and lets them sniff him, motioning for me to do the same. I let basically all the dogs in the village sniff me a bit then head back up the creek leaving the village (and all my stuff barring the new bone) behind.

I make it back to my camp a bit quicker then I expected, stuff a few handfuls of berries into my mouth and start on the charcoal pit. I've made it pretty small/shallow but it should work as a proof-of-concept charcoal kiln. I get my campfire ready then head out to take a bath. The water gets cold late, I fantasize about having a hot shower. I start my campfire and make a torch from the earlier instructions, then drop it in the charcoal whole opening to start the fire. I then make basket 2.0 by firelight so I can have something to carry everything tomorrow. The charcoal pit was still burning when I was getting ready for bed so I just kinda let it burn as I went to sleep.

Next morning went out to check my traps. Bunny's brother was in a different one and I follow the last instructions to make breakfast (oh this kill is for you guys and so on and so forth). Guess I've been pretty lucky so far! Skin goes into the tree pot like the other one that was miraculously not stolen yet. I work on my hobby-wattle-and-daub as practice for my oven later while my breakfast cooked. I've got a nice little panel going and I put it on my lean-to just so I can say I have the best home around already.

I check on my charcoal to see that I've got a nice little handful of black charcoal. I put the chunk in my basket and double check to make sure I've got everything before heading back down the mountain. I pass a the tribe's camp and reclaim my precious rocks, which have thankfully not been stolen!

So here I come to the realization that my pretty little basket probably can't move sand because of all its holes. I also have no way of moving water aside from a single cup I made. And my hands. So I guess that I'm making it next to the creek near the tribe's camp. I use the measurement of "handful" to get my 50/50 mixture of nearby sand and a short-walk-away clay. It still just looks like mud to me but I get the base "easy" enough. Hardest part was moving the clay here. It is still hard to move anything that doesn't fit well in my basket in any meaningful way.

I guess I still need something to make the rest of the oven around. Pine branches worked well for my house earlier so I ended up just picking some of them. I try to get it together but I'm really not doing well with the "but make them so close that your mud doesn't go through" thing. There is definitely some visible gaps. I guess the straw will help with that so I press on. It takes me a bit longer than I liked but in the end my little igloo looks better than any house that exists in this time .

Including my own

Moving the dried up grass was/is easier than moving the clay, but I had a stroke of brilliance and put the dried up grass at the bottom of my basket so I could use it to move clay better. I take a short lunch whenever I see a known berry bush. I manage to make some more cob (even with the grass...it still just looks like mud) and cover the first layer! Then I had to go back to camp since that basically took me all day. I build another panel for my dream house and sleep. No luck on traps the next morning, went out to bait some birds like before with all the worms I've been finding with all this digging (while hobby-making my home.). Managed to get some bird with pretty purple feathers and treated it like before (still not eating any part I'm not sure of. My stone "knife" didn't keep it from being much prettier) then went back down to make the second layer.

Anyway TLDR I managed to not starve and make an oven! I made the charcoal while I was waiting for it to dry, too. It did take a couple of days of work though. I don't have any fancy vitrifying shell on it yet but it looks good otherwise. It isn't too late to do that right?

Uh, anyway my battery is still dying slowly. Just as a heads up.

[Maximum Spin]

Pine cones are definitely a little bit edible, so I guess there's that. You can pick them in early summer when they're green and boil them. Yeah, I meant for you to make charcoal on your own and show off burning it.

Shovel, hm. It wouldn't be too durable, but if you can find some shale - a common rock with a clayey feel that breaks into layers very easily - you can often get dish-shaped pieces, and you can break bits off an edge to make it sharp and jagged. I've used shale rocks as makeshift shovels before. Downside is, like I said, it breaks easily. If you had any kind of cutting implement at all, you could make a wooden scoop too. Now, what you REALLY want is a large animal's shoulder-blade (scapula), which works really well. If you can get a hold of that, you'll be doing fine.

[King Zultan]

I pretty sure you can use anything that's mostly flat as a shovel.

If you can't use the rabbit skins you have you might be able to trade them to the cavemen for something.

[Maximum Spin]

Oh, I forgot to add, you can pack the basket surface with mud and/or clay. It won't hold water, but it would hold sand.

[A_Curious_Cat]

Remind me again, have we taught him how to make cordage from tree bark yet?