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[NJW2000]

Ugh... I'm going to be in bed at day end, as I'm going to sleep now.

As things stand, I want a Roden elim, but it seems nobody else does. I don't want a magma elim particularly, although I'm not dead set against it as I don't have any really hard scumreads and I don't expect to be strong enough to read magma immediately. So I'm stuck between Toaster and Webadict. I'm going to trust my gut on Toony, although I'm feeling shakier about that. I don't want a no-lynch, for a couple of reasons.

I believe Toaster's null-claim... there does seem to be a weird theme this game, and falseclaiming a confirmable investigation-blocker against an unreliable cop would be insanity. On the other hand, I don't think it clears them... I've BEEN ascetic scum, for example. NAI.

I know I always complain about there being too much in each day, but I do feel like I don't have enough information from people this time. On the basis of a number of very weak factors, such as our not having seen much input from them, Toaster.


Edit: Ninja'd twice by Toony... doesn't really help or change the above. Sorry if new stuff comes to light and my vote stays on Toaster when it shouldn't, but I'd be in the wrong end of the small hours if I were up then.

[Roden]

Readslist, as much to help me as for other people.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

EuchreJack: think this looks like town!Euchre. Suspect their scumbuddy would have told them to hold off on claiming neighborizer if scum, in any case. I think town.

Magma Mater: constructive, detailed scumhunting. Iirc they're extremely experienced and strong so I shouldn't expect to be able to read them D1, but I'll mark them as Town for now, very subject to change.

Jim Groovester: Helpful activity. Day 3 innocent is weird... scum can't win without 5 deaths, so this would be a very odd fakeclaim given the risk of discovery D3? I'm not entirely certain about this, but I have a weak town read.

Toonyman: dubious push against me but I'm not reading them as scum. Scum!Toony plays tight, reactive and focused D1, or at least did in the game I've seen. Today so far hasn't been that. Weak town.

Maximum Spin: As usual, null.

Toaster: many lines of text but hasn't done much in the way of useful posts, claimed "null miller" but seems more like some kind of ascetic-like role, didn't tell us the name of their role. Weak scum

webadict: hasn't followed up their last question on me, seems to have dropped things a bit in other cases, unusually non-aggressive, either genuinely wants to elim toony or isn't interested in exerting vote-based pressure at the 75% of the day mark... weak scum read.


Roden: went from "my role is useless" to "75% cop", which are two completely different things. Rather dubious. Otherwise constructive. I'm quite conflicted here, but this is making me think scum. Given the picture of the game I'm building up based on roles, I'm not as scared of ML'ing a cop as I would normally be, especially not a 75% one, so I can see voting Roden as a good idea.

In summary, Roden, I want to know why you initially claimed your role was useless, but now you're claiming a 75% accurate ability.

Because it is useless, or at least I believed it was. A 25% chance of misclearing mafia or miscondemning town isn't a chance I'm willing to take. However, now I'm starting to think this set up is less power heavy and instead more of a puzzle, and that my role can help solve that puzzle. It's why I want to inspect Toaster tonight, I'm probably the best choice for confirming their role.

[Magma Mater]

Deadline is a lot sooner than I thought. I was hoping to get some sleep but WELP

@NJW and Roden:

This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.

This is going to be one of those weird games. Anyway, I'm a miller.

I believe this claim. My role is useless, I'm an Unreliable Cop.

Why would there be a miller if you're an unreliable cop?

I think it's more likely Roden is telling the truth here then NJW unless they're both in on it, although I find Roden believable here. Especially since NJW claimed first and Roden second. I got caught out pretty badly from claiming double voter first in a past game as mafia since I had no idea there would be another claim to "meta counter" it.

I believe the Miller claim because there seems to a certain theme with roles each round, and this time it looks like it has to do with obscuring alignment peeks. I wouldn't be surprised if scum had a Janitor of some sort, for instance. But also, mechanically NJW's claim is convincing since he said the Miller part of his role was "auto", which is exactly what my Unreliable passive is labeled as. It's a little angle shooty, but I'm fine with just putting him aside for now.

The previous rounds used roles with 'auto' abilities. The mafia team also undoubtedly has 'auto' abilities. I wouldn't town read him for that.

ToonyMan is using fringe logic to justify the NJW vote that they themselves shot down in Round 3, somehow invoking my name into the atrocity, and getting all creepy buddy on me.

I don't suspect Magma Mater at this point.  While we haven't seen them as Town, we did see them as Mafia and they played quite differently.

@Max: We've worked well in the past in-thread, to the point that maybe we actually don't need a private chat to work together?
What do you think?

Can you quantify this? How am I playing differently?
I see your response regarding others' reactions to me. I don't think that's good enough to justify the read, since there are different people in this game, it could be them and not me. Why do you think I've received votes this time and why do you think I didn't receive them last time?

Yeah, I think I'll just say EJ is probs Town and call it a day.

I was kinda hoping MM would reply sooner rather than later, so I'm ready to jump on a ToonyMan train if anyone else is, and I can reassess later.  Maybe it's because I feel like their claim is too close to Vector's role in Round 3, but they're getting too combative with EJ.

Is that a problem? Whatever. I'll think about it later.

Why is EJ town? I'm assuming it's meta-related... I obviously wasn't trying to read him in the other game we played together, so I don't know his tells, if he has any.

Readslist, as much to help me as for other people.

Roden: went from "my role is useless" to "75% cop", which are two completely different things. Rather dubious. Otherwise constructive. I'm quite conflicted here, but this is making me think scum. Given the picture of the game I'm building up based on roles, I'm not as scared of ML'ing a cop as I would normally be, especially not a 75% one, so I can see voting Roden as a good idea.
[/spoiler]

In summary, Roden, I want to know why you initially claimed your role was useless, but now you're claiming a 75% accurate ability.

Hm, this is nitpicky. 75% chance is pretty useless. I also don't like the fact that you haven't given play-related reasons for voting him, other than "tone and post content" a couple posts down. Can you expand on how his tone and content make you scumread him?


I'll be back in a couple hours.

[Jim Groovester]

Day 1 will end at 2 AM, Central/Forum time Thursday. This is approximately 8 hours from now - votes after the deadline will not count.

Holy moley these days are fast.

I'll try to get something up quickly but this means I'm not going to do much agonizing over my decisions.

I'm also preoccupied with a bunch of work related stuff.

[EuchreJack]

ToonyMan is using fringe logic to justify the NJW vote that they themselves shot down in Round 3, somehow invoking my name into the atrocity, and getting all creepy buddy on me.

I don't suspect Magma Mater at this point.  While we haven't seen them as Town, we did see them as Mafia and they played quite differently.

@Max: We've worked well in the past in-thread, to the point that maybe we actually don't need a private chat to work together?
What do you think?

Can you quantify this? How am I playing differently?
I see your response regarding others' reactions to me. I don't think that's good enough to justify the read, since there are different people in this game, it could be them and not me. Why do you think I've received votes this time and why do you think I didn't receive them last time?

Last time, you were engaging in more mechanical discussion and not interrogating players as you are now.
I think your votes this time are due to bandwagoning.  Previously, you were focused on looking town, and were successful at that.
Now, you know that you are town, so you're not worrying about how you look.  Its actually easier to be non-offensive if you don't have to scumhunt.

One thing to consider: There is probably one town player that voted you to see who else would vote you, and there is probably one mafia that voted you to see if they could get you lynched or even hammered.  How high did your vote count get, and how many were needed for hammer?

[webadict]

@NJW: I know I'm just putting myself in the crosshairs, but I would prefer not voting Toaster. I don't think I would vote Roden over Toaster, either. Toaster claiming Miller second means they're likely telling the truth and them claiming at all means them being scum is pretty unlikely. It doesn't make sense to me. I would vote you over either of them.

I'm still down for Magma Mater, if only because I am too lazy to go after Toony. I kinda apologize, but I'm literally without a computer for a while.

@Magma Mater: Euchre is Town because he feels Town. Yeah, I know, that's not exactly a fair answer, but his claim feels too odd to be scum, and he's not really playing as scum.

I think not answering the Town question is entirely detrimental to yourself and no one else.
 
@Toony or whatever, blah blah blah.

Readslist:

EuchreJack - Town. Claimed Neighborizer, which is pretfy much automatic points. Clakmed second, so I guess more points.
Toaster - Slight Town. No reason to claim Null Miller. Like, no reason. Bullseyes arw bad.
Roden - Townleanish? Wtf is a 75% Cop, and why does it exiat?
Jim Groovester - Null? I guess? He needs to talk more. I like his clai. though, if he came up with that as scum, that's a fucking pat on the back, he kinda deserves to win. You know what, nah, he can be Town, too. It's a stupid fucking lie, which is why it's brilliant.
NJW - Slight scum. Which is sorta a shift from earlier because the Miller claim was super Townie. Only two people ha e fkaceclai.ed Miller, wow, that fucking typo is so bad I'm keeping it. Fakeclaimed. But I usually think its NJW, so par fod the course, I guess.
Magma Mater - I honestly kinda forgot why Magma was scummy. I shluld reread, but I'm really tired. I remember disliking so.ething in the beginning? I also don't like his poking me for my stuff and not giving reads. Would Town!Magma do this? Euchre thinks so, but Euchre has weird reads sometimes. Hm.
ToonyMan - Slightscjm. I don't feel positive about ToonyMan, but I also think I'm biased because he's been scum 3 games in a row, but I'm also biased against the idea as well for the same reason. Maybe I should stop kicking hornets nests all fucking day for a game and see how that goes? Maybe.

Who's the last person in the game, omfg?

Omg, it's Maximum Spin, yeah, I gave him a free pass for not claiming. Gutsy. I like it. I think Maximum Spin tells the truth regardless of alignment, so he probably does have a powerful role. How powerful? Oh man, who knows? There's just absutely noway to know!

Anyway, I'm about to pass out, so I apologize, but let's not last minute vote, plz?

[EuchreJack]

Following my own logic, Maximum Spin, as Web was voting Magma to see who else would vote Magma and Jim is probably town.

Toaster is semi-cleared because I don't think both Toonyman and Web are scum, and both are convinced Toaster is town.

@Magma: How much experience do you have with forum mafia? We played a Newbie game together, but that was some time ago.  Still new by this forum's status, but you might be playing other places as well?

[Magma Mater]

75% cop would be a fantastic scum claim, but only if people agree that it isn't useless - then you can lead town to mislynch *and get away with it*. Claiming it would be useless would have to be an exercise in reverse psychology. On that basis, the logical scumpartner for Roden would be NJW - Roden to call it useless and NJW to convince everyone that it's good enough to go on.

Of course, we could ask, is Roden/NJW likely on meta terms? Well... honestly, maybe? I can imagine a "now do it again" setup like that. That said, I think it probably shouldn't be at the forefront of anyone's mind right now.

The important thing I wanted to convey, though, is this: If we all agree to treat Roden's results as unreliable, then its value as a fakeclaim is ruined. Therefore, I am going to commit to ignoring them.

If Roden becomes confirmed town (for example, by dying), how do you plan on treating his results?

Lynch the unreadable Toaster then.
Since probably either NJW or Toaster is scum, and I'll bet on Toaster as the liar.  Or maybe I'm being played by Toonyman.
Give me two options with my logic, and point at one so that I'll go with the other?

Still, I think Toaster is the scum because:
1) NJW plainly stated that he was a Miller.  This drew suspicion as it could be a mafia gambit, but is the Townie thing to do if true.
Besides, isn't Good Mafia play to AVOID suspicion?
2) Toaster sorta fumbled with his claim.  Like he didn't want to say too much about it.  I'm still waiting for an answer to my question as to whether or not my Neighborizer would work on them.

What do you think the chances are that NJW and Toaster are both town? And I believe the things you said about NJW also apply to Toaster, no? Wouldn't claiming Miller after someone else had already claimed Miller be a bad idea as mafia?

As things stand, I want a Roden elim, but it seems nobody else does. I don't want a magma elim particularly, although I'm not dead set against it as I don't have any really hard scumreads and I don't expect to be strong enough to read magma immediately. So I'm stuck between Toaster and Webadict. I'm going to trust my gut on Toony, although I'm feeling shakier about that. I don't want a no-lynch, for a couple of reasons.

I believe Toaster's null-claim... there does seem to be a weird theme this game, and falseclaiming a confirmable investigation-blocker against an unreliable cop would be insanity. On the other hand, I don't think it clears them... I've BEEN ascetic scum, for example. NAI.

I know I always complain about there being too much in each day, but I do feel like I don't have enough information from people this time. On the basis of a number of very weak factors, such as our not having seen much input from them, Toaster.


Edit: Ninja'd twice by Toony... doesn't really help or change the above. Sorry if new stuff comes to light and my vote stays on Toaster when it shouldn't, but I'd be in the wrong end of the small hours if I were up then.

Your reads don't mesh very well.
- Why do you want a Roden elim, wouldn't your role imply the presence of a cop?
- Do you think it's impossible for both Roden and Toaster to be scum together?
- You seem to imply that Roden is mafia in the first paragraph, then imply that he's town in the second (with "against an unreliable cop").

ToonyMan is using fringe logic to justify the NJW vote that they themselves shot down in Round 3, somehow invoking my name into the atrocity, and getting all creepy buddy on me.

I don't suspect Magma Mater at this point.  While we haven't seen them as Town, we did see them as Mafia and they played quite differently.

@Max: We've worked well in the past in-thread, to the point that maybe we actually don't need a private chat to work together?
What do you think?

Can you quantify this? How am I playing differently?
I see your response regarding others' reactions to me. I don't think that's good enough to justify the read, since there are different people in this game, it could be them and not me. Why do you think I've received votes this time and why do you think I didn't receive them last time?

Last time, you were engaging in more mechanical discussion and not interrogating players as you are now.
I think your votes this time are due to bandwagoning.  Previously, you were focused on looking town, and were successful at that.
Now, you know that you are town, so you're not worrying about how you look.  Its actually easier to be non-offensive if you don't have to scumhunt.

One thing to consider: There is probably one town player that voted you to see who else would vote you, and there is probably one mafia that voted you to see if they could get you lynched or even hammered.  How high did your vote count get, and how many were needed for hammer?

Hm, can you give me an example of where you think I'm focusing on scumhunting?
I got to 3 votes, with 5 to hammer. Max's vote looked the worst both because it was the third on me for a silly reason, and because he hasn't changed it yet. I'd rather not be eliminated d1 in my first town game on this site just because I posted a gif. 
Can you answer your own questions? Which of the 3 who were on me look the worst to you, if you assume I'm town?

[Jim Groovester]

PPE:

Also my role name is Day 3 Innocent for those of you who were dying of anxiety about the name of my role.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hey man odds are I would've died before Day 3 whether I had claimed or not. At least this way I become attractive for positive and negative night actions.

Points one and two are about picking players for alignments which does not directly translate to my argument, however it's general support for "reading the mod". Point 3 applies directly to our situation here though. It's not a strong vote but I want to start at least somewhat reasonably.

Man I really hope 'reading the mod' isn't part of the analysis for determining town and scum in this game.

I'm curious what motivated this claim.

I think claiming is a more active approach given the role I have compared to not claiming. If people believe me then it focuses night actions in my vicinity since the scum team would want to eliminate the dangerous threat of a confirmed town on Day 3, and town would be wise to this. It gives better odds for town to gather information from the night game.

If I don't claim then to derive benefit from my role I'm banking on surviving to Day 3, which I think is unlikely.

75% cop would be a fantastic scum claim, but only if people agree that it isn't useless - then you can lead town to mislynch *and get away with it*. Claiming it would be useless would have to be an exercise in reverse psychology. On that basis, the logical scumpartner for Roden would be NJW - Roden to call it useless and NJW to convince everyone that it's good enough to go on.

Of course, we could ask, is Roden/NJW likely on meta terms? Well... honestly, maybe? I can imagine a "now do it again" setup like that. That said, I think it probably shouldn't be at the forefront of anyone's mind right now.

The important thing I wanted to convey, though, is this: If we all agree to treat Roden's results as unreliable, then its value as a fakeclaim is ruined. Therefore, I am going to commit to ignoring them.

I town read you from this post.

I'm not going to join a mass-claim, because there are strong reasons not to reveal my role right now.

What would you have on top of Miller in a mostly vanilla mafia game? What could you have on top of Miller in a mostly vanilla mafia game?

A power role. I have a miller auto and a power role.

I don't know if this would be typical for roles for this setup but some role + scum alignment inspect auto sounds pretty fakeclaimy to me.

Yeah, I think I'll just say EJ is probs Town and call it a day.

I was kinda hoping MM would reply sooner rather than later, so I'm ready to jump on a ToonyMan train if anyone else is, and I can reassess later.  Maybe it's because I feel like their claim is too close to Vector's role in Round 3, but they're getting too combative with EJ.

Is that a problem? Whatever. I'll think about it later.

I am confounded by these actions.

readslist

I don't hate this readslist.

Regarding why Magma isn't looking like mafia!Magma:
In the one game where Magma was mafia (Newbie Mafia), Magma was town read the entire game.
In this one, Magma seems to have stirred up a hornets nest.
Ergo, not meta for mafia!Magma, although I would expect new strategies for new games.
It is enough that I would at least like to see the lynch of Magma re-evaluated.

This is completely fallacious since the meta read hinges Magma Mater's alignment on other people's reactions to him rather than Magma Mater's actions.

One thing to consider: There is probably one town player that voted you to see who else would vote you, and there is probably one mafia that voted you to see if they could get you lynched or even hammered.  How high did your vote count get, and how many were needed for hammer?

Hey this is actually a pretty good question. I'm surprised since I'd normally expect you to ask good questions and make good points none of the time instead of some of the time.

@Jack:

Regarding why Magma isn't looking like mafia!Magma:
In the one game where Magma was mafia (Newbie Mafia), Magma was town read the entire game.
In this one, Magma seems to have stirred up a hornets nest.
Ergo, not meta for mafia!Magma, although I would expect new strategies for new games.
It is enough that I would at least like to see the lynch of Magma re-evaluated.

I agree, I think this reasoning is correct.

Yeah I don't like you agreeing with this when the reasoning is fallacious.

A scum role that announces itself as town on day three would be hilarious, but bad.

What are you talking about, that would be a fantastic scum role.

Why is that a weird thing to get contentious about?
To fully explain, the reasons web's "neighbor" post pings me is this:
- It's an inaccurate statement. If he's town and doesn't know what a neighborizer is, why not ask a question instead?
- It looks like it was posted for the sake of being posted. Town doesn't have much to gain by posting that as a statement, if he believes it to be true (nobody asked what a neighborizer is). On the other hand, scum-web might want to look ignorant about Euchre's role for distancing reasons.
- webadict is an experienced player, and neighborizer really is a common role. Obviously, this is speculation on my part, and is probably unfair to webadict, but it is something that I thought about and I'd be lying if I said it's not affecting my read on him.

Your points baffle me and I don't care enough to debate them.

I don't believe players play dumb about game concepts in general.

Now I'm going to be entirely hypocritical and neglect to answer your question about who I think is town, since it isn't really beneficial to reveal those at this time. My reasons are pretty much mech-based so it wouldn't give you any insight into my alignment anyway.

No, town reads are very good. Knowing who you do not want to lynch and why is almost as good as knowing who you want to lynch and why. I grade you negatively for withholding that.



I'm comfortable with my vote where it's at. Magma Mater gives me the most unease followed by NJW2000. Maximum Spin feels the most town to me. I'd feel pretty comfortable slotting EuchreJack into the town category as well. Everybody else I read weakly. ToonyMan reads very weakly town and webadict reads very weakly scum. Roden and Toaster are around. I don't hate their claims or what they've done but I'm also not impressed by them so far.

PPE: Magma Mater post: Whatever don't care this post is basically done I'll read it in a second.

[Jim Groovester]

Magma Mater, given the proximity to the deadline a vote would be a nice thing to see.

I think Roden and Toaster also need to cast theirs.

[Magma Mater]

Rereading a bit and thinking about my vote. Do we need a majority hammer, or does the person with the most votes at deadline die (plurality)?

[Jim Groovester]

I assume plurality since that's how it's always been on B12.

[webadict]

Unvote shitty vote

Magma Mater dont like beginning. fruit vendor claim with ninja is weird. either magma or i vote maximum spin and rescind my free pass, but that's rude, yo, you don't last minute revoke a free pass, that makes it a... well i cant think of words, but it isnt a free pass.

@ej: nah, i think that's wrong, I though MM was scum because he claimed fruit ninja, like what is that? especially chiding max spin but not really following it up but going after me for the neighbor shit? idk, feels weird.

ppe Unvote fucking let the vores fly, if you decide to randomly kill me, then i actually am a motion detector that counts actions instead of boolean yes no.

ppe2 look at jim go. i wanted to see who was onboard the toony express. sadly, no one bought any tickets. what a sad day.

I'll give Magma Mater some leeway to go at it.

[FallacyofUrist]

Rereading a bit and thinking about my vote. Do we need a majority hammer, or does the person with the most votes at deadline die (plurality)?

A majority vote triggers the hammer, immediately executing the person with the majority voting them and ending the Day.

If the Day ends without a majority vote, whoever has the highest number of votes on them is executed. In the event of a tie, nobody is executed.

[Magma Mater]

ninja fruit vendor is a fakeclaim, it's a nonsense role.

NJW2000
I don't like the vote on Roden, and I don't like the vote on Toaster. I don't think that either make a lot of sense from your PoV if you're town.
Scumreading Roden especially is... you're supposedly a miller, how do you not town-read the cop claim??