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Author Topic: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win  (Read 11090 times)

webadict

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #165 on: April 27, 2021, 09:40:25 pm »

Also, apparently I said April 27th, but I definitely only meant for there to be 72 hours, so if this confused people, that's on me for not knowing how to count.
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ToonyMan

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #166 on: April 27, 2021, 09:57:30 pm »

Hooray everyone wins but Persus (rip). Sorry Persus.

This game had the complete opposite problem of the first one, instead of there being too many mafia in play we had too little mafia in play.

A single mafia player, in this case Persus as a Minion, made it impossible to set up a web of lies with their allies and thus the outcome came down to whether Persus was lying, but their actions made it clear they were truthfully claiming that they had picked the right middle card as they assumed they were town. I voted Persus wondering if enough people would do the same so that he'd end up winning alone, or that if he was actually tricking us I could go "told you so!!".
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webadict

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #167 on: April 27, 2021, 11:22:56 pm »

That's true. I'm not sure if adding more Werewolves would be the right thing to do, though. Or maybe it is? Perhaps the better solution was to add in both the Tanner and the Minion in this case? The Tanner being a forced role as numbers go up might force a better metagame. I can't be sure, but it seems reasonable from a game design perspective.

Regardless, I have come up with a number of custom roles that could only work in a moderated version of this game:

Role: Smith
Alignment: Villager
Ability: Your role cannot be swapped.
Requirements: Requires a role that can swap other roles.
Web Reasoning: Less reliance on swapping roles to claim. This gives a reasonable fakeclaim for a Werewolf, as well. "I wasn't given that role because I'm a Smith." I believe this will also nerf the Aura Seer a bit, since it should allow an Aura Seer to see if a player attempted to move or view a role instead.
Web Usefulness: 9/10

Role: Baroness
Alignment: Villager
Ability: Your vote counts as two votes.
Web Reasoning: This might be a role that could have three votes in larger game, but that might be better as a separate role. I think Voting roles don't have enough roles or counterplay to them.
Web Usefulness: 7/10

Role: Crone
Alignment: Villager
Ability: The player you vote for kills the player they are voting for.
Web Reasoning: More chaos. It's a bit like the hunter, but putting the onus on another player to get this role to work, or figuring out workarounds. Overall, this role does seem strong, but it could very easily backfire.
Web Usefulness: 4/10

Role: Chronomancer (Maybe Wizard works better?)
Alignment: Villager
Ability: Choose a player to receive their original role. (Note that this does NOT reset things like Paranormal Investigator or Nostradamus.)
Requirements: Requires a role that can swap roles. (Perhaps 2+?)
Proposed Priority: After Beholder, before Revealer.
Web Reasoning: This role has a lot of power behind it, but it also seems useful to counteract lots of swapping roles. I also think that this role should be allowed to self-target, since it gives them a bit of leeway in how to act.
Web Usefulness: 7/10

Role: Night Watch
Alignment: Villager
Ability: Learns the players that targets them.
Requirements: Requires roles that target other players.
Web Reasoning: Information is powerful. I was torn on whether to make this view roles or players, but I landed on players because it seems less likely to break the game, but it could be a choice? The downside is that it could be quite useless if you're not targeted.
Web Usefulness: 6/10

Role: Baker
Alignment: Villager
Ability: You give a player a cake to stop them from performing actions.
Proposed Priority: Before the Seer.
Web Reasoning: More confusion, more fakeclaiming, more obfuscation. Also, having a roleblock. I'm not sure if this should notify the player it targets or not.
Web Usefulness: 6/10

Role: Guard Wolf
Alignment: Werewolf
Ability: You learn all the Werewolves at the start of the game.
Ability: The player you vote for has no voting powers.
Requirements: Requires at least one town role with a voting power.
Web Reasoning: It seems only fair to give the wolves a bit of voting shenanigans. This could help play against things like the Prince or Hunter.
Web Usefulness: 9/10

Role: Silent Wolf
Alignment: Werewolf
Ability: You learn all the Werewolves at the start of the game.
Ability: Pick the player to your right or your left. When your role is viewed, you will show as the chosen player's role instead.
Proposed Priority: Before the Seer.
Web Reasoning: More ways to create confusion among the players. In order to make it less powerful, I gave it a limitation on player selection. It also makes this a little more complex to solve!
Web Usefulness: 8/10

Role: Turncoat
Alignment: Anti-Villager
Ability: If you vote for a Werewolf, your vote does not count and the Werewolf's vote counts for 2.
Web Reasoning: I liked giving the Anti-Villagers some more role powers. They're quite limited at the moment. Giving one a voting power seems useful!
Web Usefulness: 8/10



On top of that, adding some of the roles that couldn't work in the current iteration without some changes to how they worked:
Role: Doppelganger
Alignment: Villager (Sorta)
Ability: At the beginning of the game, a player is randomly selected. This role becomes a copy of this role and acts as though it is a copy of this role. You are informed of which player you copied.
Priority: Immediately after the copied role.
Web Reasoning: I don't like having to wait for players to choose two things in a night. It creates a bottleneck based on when I can update. This fulfills a majority of the role's intent as well, and allows them to join the Werewolf team if needed.
Web Usefulness: 10/10

Role: Witch
Alignment: Villager
Ability: At the beginning of the game, a random Middle Role is selected. You view this role and then may choose a player to swap this role with, including yourself.
Priority: Um... Don't remember.
Web Reasoning: This is the same reasoning as the Doppelganger. If also fulfills the original role's intent.
Web Usefulness: 10/10



Sentinel still has no good way to interact in this game, though (And I added the Chronomancer/Wizard as a way to semi-implement the role.) Curator is a little boring, since two of the artifacts are not kinda boring. I think adding more Artifacts would make Curator fairly useful, and for the most part, this seems doable.
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notquitethere

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #168 on: April 28, 2021, 06:57:47 am »

Web, I like the idea of playing into the fact its moderated, makes sense for playing on forum. As such, there's no reason to tell a player that they were blocked if they were blocked.

__

Part of my reasoning for my fake VI rotation claim was to give myself wiggle room if it turned out I had made myself a wolf. I suspect Toony withholding his Troublemaker info was a way of doing the same thing. The interesting dynamic with these role switching games is that you in order to win, villagers need to tell the truth to work out the wolf position, but if they have good reason to think they could be swapped they need to withhold or misdirected until they know their position.
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Persus13

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #169 on: April 28, 2021, 07:01:34 am »

I didn't have power for the last two days, when I was only expecting to not have it for one, so that's why I suddenly went quiet and didn't vote.

My main issue was that I didn't really know my alignment, so I didn't really know what to do. I did manage to see NQT's play coming and claimed to try and get ahead of it, but that went okay.

This is my first time playing with the Village Idiot role, and I can't say I'm a fan. It basically guarantees the mafia team changing during the night, which puts those players on the backfoot, and forces them into either claiming one or two roles or trying to counterclaim.

Hooray everyone wins but Persus (rip). Sorry Persus.

This game had the complete opposite problem of the first one, instead of there being too many mafia in play we had too little mafia in play.

A single mafia player, in this case Persus as a Minion, made it impossible to set up a web of lies with their allies and thus the outcome came down to whether Persus was lying, but their actions made it clear they were truthfully claiming that they had picked the right middle card as they assumed they were town. I voted Persus wondering if enough people would do the same so that he'd end up winning alone, or that if he was actually tricking us I could go "told you so!!".
The thing is, if I got voted off, I still wouldn't win. I need to vote a villager to win if the minion is the only mafia role in play.
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notquitethere

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #170 on: April 28, 2021, 07:05:30 am »

Yes, I think the village idiot is too pro town. You'd need to stuff the scum team with wolves who don't know who their allies are to reasonably counter it. When playing in person I've stopped using Troublemaker for this reason, and the VI if like Troublemaker to the max.
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ToonyMan

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #171 on: April 28, 2021, 07:35:55 am »

Persus if you lied and said you picked left, everyone would have voted you and if villagers vote someone when there's no wolves then the minion wins. Does the minion need to get someone else voted off? That's stupid it shouldn't matter if the minion is by himself since if there's any wolves the minion wants to get eliminated!

On the flip side, if you picked left for real and lied and said you picked right, nobody would vote you and you would win since you're really a wolf.

Basically honestly claiming your action was paradoxically the wrong move to make if you wanted to win, since you weren't town and needed to realize that before claiming truthfully.

Part of my reasoning for my fake VI rotation claim was to give myself wiggle room if it turned out I had made myself a wolf. I suspect Toony withholding his Troublemaker info was a way of doing the same thing.
Yep.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 07:42:42 am by ToonyMan »
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notquitethere

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #172 on: April 28, 2021, 07:45:28 am »

Yes minion can win if they get killed themselves. It's their normal route to pretend to be an outed wolf.
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Persus13

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #173 on: April 28, 2021, 07:55:11 am »

If Minion can win by being voted when no wolves are on the table, this seems really misleading...
Role: Minion
Alignment: Anti-Villager
Ability: Knows other Werewolves in game
Ability: Wins with the Werewolves or if a Villager is killed with no Werewolves.

The thing is when I claimed I assumed I had a 1/3 chance of being the minion because the middle right role seemed like it could be Cursed, Seer, or Minion. I didn't know for sure I was minion until knight claimed seeing Seer in the middle. So all I knew was that I wasn't wolf and I wasn't going to get anyone else voted off in the 1/3 chance I wasn't town, so I decided to play town since that's how I started the night.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 08:03:25 am by Persus13 »
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Congratulations Persus, now you are forced to have the same personal text for an entire year!
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Secretdorf

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #174 on: April 28, 2021, 07:57:59 am »

I won, great. Everyone would have won but persus got bad luck. Still, fun.
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notquitethere

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #175 on: April 28, 2021, 08:05:59 am »

If Minion can win by being voted when no wolves are on the table, this seems really misleading...
Ah my mistake, the solo minion is essentially a wolf.
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BluarianKnight

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #176 on: April 28, 2021, 08:24:35 am »

This game was really bloody confusing for me.
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ToonyMan

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #177 on: April 28, 2021, 08:32:51 am »

Solo minion should be allowed to win if they're voted off, they're already at a disadvantage and it makes no sense as they would win if they're voted off otherwise.
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webadict

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #178 on: April 28, 2021, 09:00:18 am »

There's definitely a lot of changes to be made. Village Idiot definitely is a tough one to balance around. Minion is also a bit weak. Troublemaker is also troublesome.

Hmmm... Changing Minion to win when killed makes some sense, if I plan on the "Always 2 Wolves" setup. It could also become a Villager if none exist. Overall, Minion is sorta just a Werewolf that can be killed without losing.

As for Village Idiot and Troublemaker... I could remove them from generation at the moment. They do seem too powerful without some wolf counterplay. I want to add more ways to stop them (hence why adding the Smith or Chronomancer/Wizard might help)

Would you guys think more Wolves or non-villagers being added would make the game more interesting? Right now, generation always adds 2 wolves and 1 third party, but these could become dynamic with group size.

Do you guys want to see some additional roles added to the game? Do you have ideas you'd like to see added? We can balance, buff, or nerf any of these roles, and I'm getting closer to Mamobo getting the ideas for generation down.

Would you guys want to have the potential for the vampire or alien editions of this game as generation options? Combined? The other editions are much weirder, though.

Throw them at me.
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notquitethere

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Re: One Night Ultimate Webwolf - Round 2: Villager Win
« Reply #179 on: April 28, 2021, 09:12:35 am »

So this game has an interesting feature in that up to a certain level, more wolves don't necessarily make it easier for the wolves, as it means more potential weak links: only one wolf needs to by killed.

In games with less role info roles, it also becomes more like normal mafia with less focus on role puzzles and more on day game. I think there's a sweet spot between the two: role variety that can conceivably allow many possible fake claims for each player or team.
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