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[webadict]

You've been here the whole game Webadict. You're going full nuclear now because I voted you and confirmed Luckyowl. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

MOD: Can we shorten please? Luckyowl isn't going to vote unless he has to and I don't care how he feels about it after arguing with confirmed scum Webadict for hours. I think he'll make the right choice.

Hahaha! You've basically proven that you no longer care about proving me scum. Now you're relying on a time limit because that's all you've got. I'm all for you trying to debunk my claim. I mean, here I am, giving you plenty of chances, and you spurn me. How I feel... so disappointed. Unfortunate.

Is your goal to win the game on a coinflip now?

[ToonyMan]

Luckyowl, you're looking for logical reasons that make somebody more scummy or town. I've completely exhausted every case up until confirming you as town. I don't think I can add more besides humoring Webadict. I've already countered everything he could think of (plus more) and he's just going to go on and on and on until you nod your head and go "yeah you're totally right Scumadict!!" You need to vote one of us, you've made good cases for both of us, so figure out which one is more scummy. Behavioral stuff like making jokes or acting like an insane lunatic is complete emotional appeal and doesn't prove anything.

[webadict]

Luckyowl, you're looking for logical reasons that make somebody more scummy or town. I've completely exhausted every case up until confirming you as town. I don't think I can add more besides humoring Webadict. I've already countered everything he could think of (plus more) and he's just going to go on and on and on until you nod your head and go "yeah you're totally right Scumadict!!" You need to vote one of us, you've made good cases for both of us, so figure out which one is more scummy. Behavioral stuff like making jokes or acting like an insane lunatic is complete emotional appeal and doesn't prove anything.

That's not true. You only replied to 4 points here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177868.msg8236319#msg8236319

You're using your own scumtells to prove, somehow, that I'm scum. You're calling me scum for unvoting you, when it's not any more or less scummy than anything else. Now, calling it an emotional appeal would probably be apt, because that could be it, but I gave Luckyowl a way to prove I'm Town, and that would do it by virtue of the same logic that your voting me proved Luckyowl. You could say that it relies entirely on Luckyowl trusting me, and that would be correct. But, otherwise, Luckyowl has to make a choice. I only gave them one if they're unable to decide.

Heck, not making a decision means lynching me! That's the choice they're making by not voting! And you wanting to Shorten the game is another method of winning, isn't it? Do you see how all of this points towards you being scum? Because I do. It's pretty obvious you're scum.

[ToonyMan]

Luckyowl, vote one of us. Please for the love of god.

[Luckyowl]

Luckyowl, you're looking for logical reasons that make somebody more scummy or town. I've completely exhausted every case up until confirming you as town. I don't think I can add more besides humoring Webadict. I've already countered everything he could think of (plus more) and he's just going to go on and on and on until you nod your head and go "yeah you're totally right Scumadict!!" You need to vote one of us, you've made good cases for both of us, so figure out which one is more scummy. Behavioral stuff like making jokes or acting like an insane lunatic is complete emotional appeal and doesn't prove anything.

I do agree with you, all points were already made and counter long before...the webadict's show. So, you can ignore Web if you want. I'll come up with a vote tomorrow.

[ToonyMan]

Luckyowl, you're looking for logical reasons that make somebody more scummy or town. I've completely exhausted every case up until confirming you as town. I don't think I can add more besides humoring Webadict. I've already countered everything he could think of (plus more) and he's just going to go on and on and on until you nod your head and go "yeah you're totally right Scumadict!!" You need to vote one of us, you've made good cases for both of us, so figure out which one is more scummy. Behavioral stuff like making jokes or acting like an insane lunatic is complete emotional appeal and doesn't prove anything.

I do agree with you, all points were already made and counter long before...the webadict's show. So, you can ignore Web if you want. I'll come up with a vote tomorrow.

Alright.

If you have any questions for me I'm here. If you want to talk to Webadict be my guest.

[webadict]

Luckyowl, vote one of us. Please for the love of god.

So, you admit that you're not going to try anymore? I didn't realize that the Mafia were a bunch of quitters. Obviously, since I quit in F11, that proves you're scum.

Luckyowl, you're looking for logical reasons that make somebody more scummy or town. I've completely exhausted every case up until confirming you as town. I don't think I can add more besides humoring Webadict. I've already countered everything he could think of (plus more) and he's just going to go on and on and on until you nod your head and go "yeah you're totally right Scumadict!!" You need to vote one of us, you've made good cases for both of us, so figure out which one is more scummy. Behavioral stuff like making jokes or acting like an insane lunatic is complete emotional appeal and doesn't prove anything.

I do agree with you, all points were already made and counter long before...the webadict's show. So, you can ignore Web if you want. I'll come up with a vote tomorrow.

I literally only just got here and this is what I get? For shame, Luckyowl. For shame.

[webadict]

I want you to take a look at how ToonyMan reacted when I unvoted, and somehow tried to spin that as a scumtell. Get them to eexplain how that's a scumtell.

[Vector]

Luckyowl, vote one of us. Please for the love of god.

[this again?]

ptw

[webadict]

ToonyMan has yet to come up with a scumtell that didn't originate from another player, and they continue to push those as evidence for me being scum.
ToonyMan no longer wishes to try to engage because they no longer have a free pass. Additionally, they are falling back on an attitude they took up in VM12.5.

You'll notice, of course, that when I point to scumtells, I also use ones that ToonyMan has literally displayed as scum. Because that's how scumtells work. I'm not sure ToonyMan has ever learned that, or they might consider using one that actually applies, but I suppose that grasping at straws is one of their main attributes when they play a Mafia game. Look at BP3 and compare it to how they're playing here, where they attempted to hide the fact that they were playing the killing game. They are playing pretty similar to how VM12.5 and BP3 played out because, well, they're scum, and they know it.

ToonyMan is afraid of a lynch because I unvoted them. It is a nonsensical action because they realize that that is, indeed, another way to prove you're not scum. It's not a scumtell, but it does rely on the person deciding the vote to essentially believe I'm Town because I could hammer it. It is a nulltell, at best, and a Towntell for me, especially in this case specifically because it could be construed as potentially scum friendly, or buddying, or something. It doesn't really matter what ToonyMan thinks it is, because they are wrong, and I've shown that. They don't plan on making any more arguments, but I do because I'm Town, and also because I literally don't believe in your ability to rationally look at the evidence and make a sound decision without me shoving you into it.

[ToonyMan]

Voting History

The Facts

Day 1:
RVS starts
ToonyMan votes Caz.
TricMagic votes self, but then votes ToonyMan.
Webadict votes Luckyowl.
RVS ends
Luckyowl votes Luckyowl.
TricMagic unvotes ToonyMan.
Webadict unvotes Luckyowl.
TricMagic votes Luckyowl.
Luckyowl unvotes Luckyowl.
ToonyMan votes TricMagic.
Luckyowl votes TricMagic.
Webadict hammer votes TricMagic.

Day 2:
ToonyMan votes Caz.
Webadict votes Caz.
Luckyowl hammer votes Caz.

Day 3:
ToonyMan votes Webadict.
Webadict votes ToonyMan.
Webadict unvotes ToonyMan.


(I'm going to use orange here for mafia so that 4mask can't troll me.)

Case #1 - ToonyMan is Town, Webadict is Mafia

Day 1:
RVS starts
ToonyMan votes Caz.
TricMagic votes self, but then votes ToonyMan.
Webadict votes Luckyowl.
RVS ends
Luckyowl votes Luckyowl.
TricMagic unvotes ToonyMan.
Webadict unvotes Luckyowl.
TricMagic votes Luckyowl.
Luckyowl unvotes Luckyowl.
ToonyMan votes TricMagic.
Luckyowl votes TricMagic.
Webadict hammer votes TricMagic.

Day 2:
ToonyMan votes Caz.
Webadict votes Caz.
Luckyowl hammer votes Caz.

Day 3:
ToonyMan votes Webadict.
Webadict votes ToonyMan.
Webadict unvotes ToonyMan.


Case #2 - ToonyMan is Mafia, Webadict is Town

Day 1:
RVS starts
ToonyMan votes Caz.
TricMagic votes self, but then votes ToonyMan.
Webadict votes Luckyowl.
RVS ends
Luckyowl votes Luckyowl.
TricMagic unvotes ToonyMan.
Webadict unvotes Luckyowl.
TricMagic votes Luckyowl.
Luckyowl unvotes Luckyowl.
ToonyMan votes TricMagic.
Luckyowl votes TricMagic.
Webadict hammer votes TricMagic.

Day 2:
ToonyMan votes Caz.
Webadict votes Caz.
Luckyowl hammer votes Caz.

Day 3:
ToonyMan votes Webadict.
Webadict votes ToonyMan.
Webadict unvotes ToonyMan.


There's one new piece of evidence I want to address in my next post for why Webadict is mafia.

This is a new reasoning that was not in my initial findings, a post-vote reasoning so to speak.

[ToonyMan]

Case #1
This is the truth.

Case #2

Webadict unvotes ToonyMan.

This unvote makes no sense. Sure, town or mafia could unvote here, but let's look at the context:

Basically, Luckyowl, there's literally only one way to prove I'm Town, and that's if I unvote and you vote ToonyMan and I don't hammer. Unfortunately, that involves you trusting me, which I don't expect, but unvoting ToonyMan also doesn't matter because I can vote them whenever I want.

Why should Luckyowl trust Webadict? Webadict is framing this like the game won't immediately end if Luckyowl votes me. This is completely untrue no matter what Webadict's alignment is. Webadict's "trusting game" is a lie and he should be honest that the game would be over whether he was town or mafia. The fact he isn't pointing that out means he's mafia. He is trying to deceive Luckyowl.

If Webadict is town:
Luckyowl votes ToonyMan.
Webadict becomes confirmed town, since he doesn't quickhammer.
Luckyowl is already confirmed town, because he didn't quickhammer.
ToonyMan is confirmed mafia, game is over.

If Webadict is mafia:
Luckyowl votes ToonyMan.
Webadict quickhammers ToonyMan, game is over.

[ToonyMan]

More quotes of Webadict being deceiving about his "trusting game":

We can't prove we're town at this point. Luckyowl is confirmed town. One of us is mafia. We can't prove either of us are town at this point. Luckyowl has to believe one of us.

That's actually not true. Luckyowl can vote you and I can prove myself by not hammering. It involves the same amount of trust you put in Luckyowl, doesn't it? Now, the problem is that by doing that, they have to trust me, which you can't have because it would definitively show you're Mafia.

ToonyMan is afraid of a lynch because I unvoted them. It is a nonsensical action because they realize that that is, indeed, another way to prove you're not scum. It's not a scumtell, but it does rely on the person deciding the vote to essentially believe I'm Town because I could hammer it. It is a nulltell, at best, and a Towntell for me, especially in this case specifically because it could be construed as potentially scum friendly, or buddying, or something. It doesn't really matter what ToonyMan thinks it is, because they are wrong, and I've shown that. They don't plan on making any more arguments, but I do because I'm Town, and also because I literally don't believe in your ability to rationally look at the evidence and make a sound decision without me shoving you into it.

[webadict]

So you really have given up on trying to use scumtells to prove I'm scum. Still no counterpoints. Still trying to use nothing as scumtells. Can you at least come up with better lies? These ones are boring.

This unvote makes no sense. Sure, town or mafia could unvote here, but let's look at the context:

Basically, Luckyowl, there's literally only one way to prove I'm Town, and that's if I unvote and you vote ToonyMan and I don't hammer. Unfortunately, that involves you trusting me, which I don't expect, but unvoting ToonyMan also doesn't matter because I can vote them whenever I want.

Why should Luckyowl trust Webadict? Webadict is framing this like the game won't immediately end if Luckyowl votes me. This is completely untrue no matter what Webadict's alignment is. Webadict's "trusting game" is a lie and he should be honest that the game would be over whether he was town or mafia. The fact he isn't pointing that out means he's mafia. He is trying to deceive Luckyowl.

If Webadict is town:
Luckyowl votes ToonyMan.
Webadict becomes confirmed town, since he doesn't quickhammer.
Luckyowl is already confirmed town, because he didn't quickhammer.
ToonyMan is confirmed mafia, game is over.

If Webadict is mafia:
Luckyowl votes ToonyMan.
Webadict quickhammers ToonyMan, game is over.

Again, you don't get it because you'd be too afraid of losing to try it. Because you're scum. It's honestly as easy as that. The fact that you're trying to turn it into a scumtell is what makes this hilarious. I even literally explained the point behind it. I can literally verify myself by doing it. The problem behind it, as I literally say in those exact quotes, is that it takes the same amount of trust as voting to hammer you does. You're still not focusing on the emotional appeal behind it, because you still haven't use it. If you want to tear down the argument, aim at that. Why aren't you? Because you're afraid you'll overstep and lose Luckyowl. It's really that simple.

The point is that you can't lose Luckyowl's trust, so you're never going to aim beyond that.

What would you say if Luckyowl voted you and I didn't hammer then? It sounds like you're just painting yourself into a smaller and smaller box, Toony. None of what I said is a lie, is it? Could you list them out? In want you to show where I lied to Luckyowl?

[ToonyMan]

Spoiler: Day 1 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Day 2 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Day 3 (click to show/hide)