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Author Topic: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?  (Read 13413 times)

notquitethere

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #120 on: January 10, 2021, 10:23:47 am »

Also there was a long moment D2 when I was genuinely concerned Lucky was going to side with Toony against me. Around the leaving the vote while I slept argument. Because, really, sleeping on a bad vote is something scum do all the time and get away with. But it strictly speaking was a null tell.
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hector13

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #121 on: January 10, 2021, 10:25:43 am »

Mafiachat, by the way.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Luckyowl

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #122 on: January 10, 2021, 10:27:35 am »

I don't think 4mask would've fair well on day 2. I would've just vote him off for interacting with ToonyMan and for jumping the bandwagon.
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webadict

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #123 on: January 10, 2021, 11:03:26 am »

You made the right choice... but how did you know Toony and me were an impossible team?
At first? Gut feeling. If you can trust my retroactive decision-making, I honestly felt like ToonyMan wouldn't have hammered me without notifying you like that. It was too Loose Cannon. I could only see that having coordinated with 4maskwolf or SOMEHOW thought it was a good idea on their own. I'll be honest that, had ToonyMan defended the vote in the same post, I possibly would've Vengekilled ToonyMan. The fact that ToonyMan acted so deliberately anti-Town had me convinced that I couldn't trust that ToonyMan was anti-Town, which might sound stupid now, but it did make me consider if I somehow missed something I had done as scummy. Thus, I punted the question to Day 2.

So, if ToonyMan and you were on a team, then I don't believe I would've been hammered that way by ToonyMan. This left the two possible teams at ToonyMan - 4maskwolf OR notquitethere - 4maskwolf. Thus, every possible team combination in it had 4maskwolf, so I killed the 100% shot. That's the initial reason I shot. I thought it over for a bit, too, and realized that 4maskwolf was likely the person that had the most persuasive argument for voting me on Day 2, and removing them was for Luckyowl's protection, because I knew--I KNEW--it was going to come down to Luckyowl having to make the decision. I'm actually really glad it did, because they needed to learn to make a decision that doesn't revolve around their own arguments...

Which leads me to... LUCKYOWL...

I don't think 4mask would've fair well on day 2. I would've just vote him off for interacting with ToonyMan and for jumping the bandwagon.
Given what I saw during Day 2? Trust me when I say I don't believe you.

Your play suffers for a lot of reasons, and the first is that you are either slowrolling your vote, which is pointlessly painstaking for everyone involved, or you're questioning yourself a lot and can't make a decision. Your questions are full of bait-and-switch tactics, calling one player scum while not believing it and swapping to the other player, which doesn't do you favors. These players weren't going to make an obvious scumslip from those questions. Your questions need to get at the heart of the decision you have to make. Why did ToonyMan hammer? ToonyMan explained it. Why did notquitethere go to sleep after setting the vote? notquitethere explained that. They made the arguments for you. You needed to figure out which was more correct to you.

The only reason people couldn't lynch you is because you were obviously Town from your own mistakes and you had my defense on Day 1 to work with. But, your behavior could be construed as mean-spirited specifically because you're not listing out your real feelings. Why is being completely truthful here good?

You were confirmed Town. That means everything you say is confirmed to be from confirmed Town. That means you need to avoid playing games with people, as this just adds unnecessary spite to the game. I saw the comment you made about making this last into Wednesday. Why? There was no reason behind that other than you wanted to take the maximum amount of time to deliberate before you had to make the choice. If you need more information, then say that. If you don't, then at least tell everyone that that's it. But you need to decide. They couldn't decide for you.

Perhaps the reality is that you still weren't sure at the end, but if that's the case, would time have made a significant factor in choosing? I don't think so. I would really have preferred someone had pushed you in the game to make a decision, because there was not going to be more information to influence your decision. Sometimes, it comes down to just one person making the decision. And if you made the wrong decision, then oh well. I would've told you what you missed.

At the end of the Day, you made the right decision for the right reasons. It just took you a long time to get to that decision. Answer these questions: Why did it take so long? What was causing doubt? Where were you stuck? Those are important things to learn about your playstyle for the future.
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webadict

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #124 on: January 10, 2021, 11:06:48 am »

Mafiachat, by the way.
Quote
"I was wrong, but Webadict was right"

It hurts to say this.
lol.

EDIT: I was memehammered. Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 11:09:23 am by webadict »
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4maskwolf

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #125 on: January 10, 2021, 11:20:05 am »

Mafiachat, by the way.
Quote
"I was wrong, but Webadict was right"

It hurts to say this.
lol.

EDIT: I was memehammered. Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow
Yeah there wasn't much planning going on behind the scenes, just a lot of "what would be funny to do".

ToonyMan

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #126 on: January 10, 2021, 11:37:00 am »

Good games town.

Some thoughts and analysis:

ToonyMan:
I think I played as well as I could have as a mafioso. I wasn't thinking I'd be around for Day 2 so I tried to turn an unwinnable situation into a win by convincing Luckyowl. Honestly felt like I had at least a 50/50 shot of it working. My hammer wasn't justifiable at all, but there's an argument I was mistaken town. Memehammering Webadict was really funny, but I wasn't suppose to survive doing that so justifying myself afterwards was a challenge. One day I'll play a game where I don't kill Webadict.

4maskwolf:
My brother in arms. I think voting them was really clever and I don't have any criticism with their play. If they were around for Day 2 instead of me I think we would have had a much higher chance of winning. I was pretty obviously scummy, but 4mask was way more ambiguous.

Webadict:
Very smart of them to kill the person who put them at L-1 and not the guy with the really shady hammer. This made it more than obvious that I was scummy and should be lynched on D2. I didn't want to make myself too obvious scum in case I did survive though.

Notquitethere:
Literally didn't get to play D1 so can't say much there. Everything they said on D2 was correct.

Luckyowl:
Accidently confirmed themselves as town on D1. I think this may have played a part in why I wanted to quickhammer Webadict compulsively like that. If I dawdled then there would be more evidence against us. This meant the lynch had to be on Webadict or NQT. I think they should listen to Web's advice in their previous post.

I would like to do a deeper dive into D1 votes and lynches at a later date.
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Caz

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #127 on: January 10, 2021, 11:51:08 am »

this was fun to read.
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webadict

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #128 on: January 10, 2021, 12:03:05 pm »

Good games town.

Some thoughts and analysis:

ToonyMan:
I think I played as well as I could have as a mafioso. I wasn't thinking I'd be around for Day 2 so I tried to turn an unwinnable situation into a win by convincing Luckyowl. Honestly felt like I had at least a 50/50 shot of it working. My hammer wasn't justifiable at all, but there's an argument I was mistaken town. Memehammering Webadict was really funny, but I wasn't suppose to survive doing that so justifying myself afterwards was a challenge. One day I'll play a game where I don't kill Webadict.

4maskwolf:
My brother in arms. I think voting them was really clever and I don't have any criticism with their play. If they were around for Day 2 instead of me I think we would have had a much higher chance of winning. I was pretty obviously scummy, but 4mask was way more ambiguous.

Webadict:
Very smart of them to kill the person who put them at L-1 and not the guy with the really shady hammer. This made it more than obvious that I was scummy and should be lynched on D2. I didn't want to make myself too obvious scum in case I did survive though.

Notquitethere:
Literally didn't get to play D1 so can't say much there. Everything they said on D2 was correct.

Luckyowl:
Accidently confirmed themselves as town on D1. I think this may have played a part in why I wanted to quickhammer Webadict compulsively like that. If I dawdled then there would be more evidence against us. This meant the lynch had to be on Webadict or NQT. I think they should listen to Web's advice in their previous post.

I would like to do a deeper dive into D1 votes and lynches at a later date.
Alright, I'll finish up with everyone else:

ToonyMan:
Honestly ToonyMan, thinking back on it, I do think you made a good decision to quickhammer (Or, at the very least, a not incorrect one.) I realized it was to purposefully bait the Vengekill, too, but only after I saw the flip. It's possible that the play could've been improved by asking me a few more questions before hammering me ("confirming your suspicion," so to speak), but then that changes the intended plan a bit to avoid being Vengekilled and play for a Day 2. Basically, just add a fallback plan, in case it doesn't work as intended.

You were right. I was planning to lynch one of the remaining three and get myself into a position where I controlled Luckyowl (and therefore the game). That's actually what I thought I was being hammered over. I was going to show Luckyowl the reasoning behind what I was doing, in an attempt to prove I was Town, and then I probably would've advocated for a lynch on, likely, 4maskwolf. So overall, as a plan, it was solid. It was incredibly bold, but it wasn't without merit, and honestly, I think it might've worked had I second-guessed myself on the Vengekill.

If I had to change how your Day 2 play was, though, I'd have gone for a more apologetic tone as your first post and owning the mistake. You'd use that as proof to show Luckyowl has to be Town, and then confirming it when they don't insta-lynch (Or, you know, they DO, in which case, you win). Additionally, I think you're next best move would've been to start buddying Luckyowl hard. You'll notice that Day 1 had some of me doing that to Luckyowl, and it can work, but you're going to have to play hard at them. Humbling yourself before Luckyowl might've made them think twice about their decision.

notquitethere:
I also agree that notquitethere had a great opening post on Day 2. Well reasoned arguments, and a solid defense for everything. Overall, no complaints or suggestions. Like, they didn't even get to play Day 1, but they knocked it out of the park.

4maskwolf:
Regarding 4maskwolf, I can't come up with improvements, because a lot of my suspicion of them was gut related. The thing I got hung up on the most was that they voted for me, but also said Luckyowl was Town. Putting me at L-1 wasn't super suspicious, but they were defending the vote too hard (Am I using the Too Townie fallacy?) for it to be a simple pressure vote. A lot of why I Vengekilled them related to me removing ToonyMan - notquitethere as a team, and because they were probably the biggest threat if I didn't. Basically... Eh? They made me wary enough that I had to kill them, so they showed they were doing a good enough job.

webadict:
Great job, as usual. Medal of Honor. 150%. A+++ grade. I liked the part where you posted and the other part where you also got to play. Keep it up. Maybe work on not getting quickhammered next time, though, but honestly, that wasn't your fault.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 12:07:27 pm by webadict »
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Luckyowl

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #129 on: January 10, 2021, 12:35:47 pm »



ToonyMan:

If I had to change how your Day 2 play was, though, I'd have gone for a more apologetic tone as your first post and owning the mistake. You'd use that as proof to show Luckyowl has to be Town, and then confirming it when they don't insta-lynch (Or, you know, they DO, in which case, you win). Additionally, I think you're next best move would've been to start buddying Luckyowl hard. You'll notice that Day 1 had some of me doing that to Luckyowl, and it can work, but you're going to have to play hard at them. Humbling yourself before Luckyowl might've made them think twice about their decision.


What? you got this all backward. Humbling before me would only make me more suscipious of you. I suspected Vector of being scum because he agreed to my flaw plan in BYOR 15. He flipped town. ToonyMan sealed the deal when he started to latch on to this.


ToonyMan: So do you think NQH planned the whole "I'm gonna sleep for 8 hours?" To snare you in a trap?
I don't know if he really went to sleep, but like you pointed out he left his vote on Webadict which 4mask conveniently followed up on.

My guess is that this was planned beforehand at least.
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webadict

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #130 on: January 10, 2021, 12:49:58 pm »

You're right, Lucky, I have to remember that you read things backwards and upside down.
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Luckyowl

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #131 on: January 10, 2021, 12:51:02 pm »

Everyone: Luckyowl accidently confirmed himself town.

me:   ???

I won't really say anything I benefit from it either way. Was I a fool who won by a fluke. Maybe. Am I genius who thinks diffrently, perhaps(probably not.) Should I stop being an asshole.
Wubba:
Quote
your behavior could be construed as mean-spirited specifically because you're not listing out your real feelings. Why is being completely truthful here good?

 yes. Yeah. I think I should stop being an asshole. :-\
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Luckyowl

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #132 on: January 10, 2021, 12:52:03 pm »

You're right, Lucky, I have to remember that you read things backwards and upside down.

Webadict

Obviously the hidden scum.
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webadict

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #133 on: January 10, 2021, 01:00:20 pm »

I was gonna explain to you why:

You didn't realize the Flagbearer and Mafioso were scum together. Had you been scum, you would have known that. Additionally, there were context clues you received a Townie PM because it lists both of these in the PM. I also know you don't read opening posts for meta reasons. Call it cheating a bit, but you have a lot of metatells related to being a new player. When you are scum, you will likely fall into the Org Theory of Scummitude easily. That is not a good thing.
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ToonyMan

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Re: Vengeful Mafia 12.5 - WHERE ARE THE COOKIES!?
« Reply #134 on: January 10, 2021, 01:53:26 pm »

What? you got this all backward. Humbling before me would only make me more suscipious of you. I suspected Vector of being scum because he agreed to my flaw plan in BYOR 15. He flipped town. ToonyMan sealed the deal when he started to latch on to this.
Ssshhh, it's bad manners to talk about an ongoing game.

Everyone: Luckyowl accidently confirmed himself town.
me:   ???
And this is why you confirmed yourself as town. On the other hand, you could easily confirm yourself as mafia by playing the same way, so be careful.

I won't really say anything I benefit from it either way. Was I a fool who won by a fluke. Maybe.
I wouldn't say so, when you finally voted me you made a very easy to understand reasoning for your vote, and it was a correct decision as well.
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