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[4maskwolf]

I mean, you’re not wrong that Icy and I are working together in some way, we just got finished claiming that.

[4maskwolf]

Sorry, that was sneakier than it needed to be.

What, exactly, are you accusing us of regarding our coordination. Do you suspect we’re scum pulling a gambit? A mentor/mentee type pseudo cult? Do you think we’re lying about knowing each other’s alignments out of trust in each other? The fact that Icy and I can and do coordinate and communicate outside the thread is an acknowledged fact, so I’m unsure what point you’re making by saying that Icy and I “might be working together in some way.”

[4maskwolf]

EBWOP: Snarkier, not sneakier. Fuck autocorrect.

[IcyTea31]

IcyTea31, what's the deal with this imposter and secret chat? Everyone seems to have brush it under the rug.

That was a misunderstanding of you saying I'd said something about my abilities, when I was speaking of yours. Since I didn't remember saying it and especially not in that context, I assumed you'd been talking to an imposter of some sort.

[Luckyowl]

Sorry, that was sneakier than it needed to be.

What, exactly, are you accusing us of regarding our coordination. Do you suspect we’re scum pulling a gambit? A mentor/mentee type pseudo cult? Do you think we’re lying about knowing each other’s alignments out of trust in each other? The fact that Icy and I can and do coordinate and communicate outside the thread is an acknowledged fact, so I’m unsure what point you’re making by saying that Icy and I “might be working together in some way.”

My point is that both of you are working together and might be doing some sort of gambit scum play. I'm also glad that you guys claimed you're working together. At least it make sense now. However, does claiming such a thing is a good thing? If you two other players claimed this, how would you react©?

[4maskwolf]

Sorry, that was sneakier than it needed to be.

What, exactly, are you accusing us of regarding our coordination. Do you suspect we’re scum pulling a gambit? A mentor/mentee type pseudo cult? Do you think we’re lying about knowing each other’s alignments out of trust in each other? The fact that Icy and I can and do coordinate and communicate outside the thread is an acknowledged fact, so I’m unsure what point you’re making by saying that Icy and I “might be working together in some way.”

My point is that both of you are working together and might be doing some sort of gambit scum play. I'm also glad that you guys claimed you're working together. At least it make sense now. However, does claiming such a thing is a good thing? If you two other players claimed this, how would you react©?

Depends on your point of view, I guess. Icy and I agreed that now was when we wanted to claim and i personally believe it to be a good time for such a claim, allowing it to be revealed by us, on our terms, in a situation that won’t cause a firestorm and bury the rest of the day in arguments of its veracity. YMMV, I’ve never played a game with masons before so I’m not sure what the “correct” policy is.

If two other players claimed this, in this situation, my response would basically be, “okay.” Not trust, or at least not full trust, but the claim doesn’t fundamentally change anything other than tying two players alignments together. This early in the game I’d personally be inclined to believe it, there’s so much that can go wrong for the scum with such an early claim tying their fates together, but I wouldn’t consider it mechanically clearing (then again, in a game like this mechanical clears may be technically impossible).

[Toaster]

Luckyowl:

FOU:

"So do you think Tric is town, if you're choosing to give him your buff?"

Reply: I chose Tric out of a whim at that time. So, no. I don't really think he is town and is most likely a third-party role. But I won't vote against him since I don't have a good reason to do so. I would just be jumping the wagon for the sake of it. And also there might be a possible flip and anyone who voted TricMagic will get magnified. Sure, it's townie to vote the most suspicious person who isn't cooperating. But still. I prefer to vote the one I'm mostly suspicious of and right now It's itching a bit to 4maskwolf. But I won't flat out vote on him until I can be very sure.

So to be clear, you fired off a beneficial ability blind?


IcyTea and 4maskwolf:

I am indeed in a masonry with 4maskwolf.

We're confirmed town to each other, have a secret chat, and are immune to alignment conversion.

Well... that is an interesting twist.  I don't have the time right this second to analyze this, but expect something later today.

4maskwolf:  Could I get your current reads of Jim and Fallacy, please?

Still gonna need this.


Dolores:

ToonyMan

Why here and not here?




Lunch break too short to hit all the points, and I think I'm missing a response from someone other than 4mask, but I need some time.

[4maskwolf]

4maskwolf:  Could I get your current reads of Jim and Fallacy, please?

Still gonna need this.

I know. I’m PFP at work so I’m stuck on real-time posting atm, don’t have the time to give them a solid read through till I’m home.

[dolores]

ToonyMan

Why here and not here?

This entire case is less compelling to me than the one on 4maskwolf in the sense that there's an outside possibility, however slim, of it being a long string of mistakes and miscommunications. Maybe ToonyMan was just wrong, then failed to grasp how it was pointed out to him, etc. Maybe neither I nor NJW2000 can read.

Specifically, I had no intention of unvoting 4maskwolf until I had an answer to my questions or the day was about to end. Without anything to convince me of the legitimacy of any of his reads, 4maskwolf had/has nothing to convince me he's ever thought about the alignment of any other player.
Instead of that, I got a soft mechanical insight (or, proxy anyway) into his alignment. His reason for not doing work is the same as his reason for not asking any RVS questions in the first post: he unapologetically didn't give one. It's believable, and I no longer have a reason to want him lynched.

[Nirur Torir]

Vector presents a clear and compelling case on Toony.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177586.msg8228089#msg8228089
Dolores' is founded on Toony not being wordy enough to say he agrees with any other town reads on Heydude, instead briefly adding his own points. Point 2, shifting goalposts, fine. I disagree with point 3's circular logic, as it ties in with 1.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177586.msg8228092#msg8228092
IcyT agrees with Dolores and attacks Toony's RVS tunnel.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177586.msg8228110#msg8228110
NJW offers no new insights other than liking the case, though he had been suspicious of Toony previously.

Dolores, Tea, and NJW: You seem to think Toony is scum, and a more compelling lynch than Tric, a very likely third party. Your reasonings feel like weak standard D1 guess lynches.
What success % odds do you give that Toony is scum, and why is lynching him at those odds our best D1 play?

[ToonyMan]

4mask & IcyTea:

Icy tea and I are masons.

Uh huh. Makes sense to protect your buddy IcyTea.

This is such a horrendously bad take I have difficulty seeing it as anything other than a scum knee-jerk. Protect him from what, the one person voting him? There are plenty of legitimate concerns that could be raised around our claim, but “you’re just trying to protect him” after the wagon has already collapsed isn’t one of them.

Icy tea and I are masons.

Uh huh. Makes sense to protect your buddy IcyTea.

This is literally the opposite of what is happening (anti-wifom planned reveal aside). The best reads on 4maskwolf in this game were "I forgot he was playing", and I think more people were waiting on answers from him than on anyone else besides maybe Tric and you.

Sorry, this is a misunderstanding I should have cleared up earlier. I'm not implying you're scum buddies. Mafia would be giving up half of their team to lynch me, I don't believe that's true at all. I think it's likely you both aren't mafia.

I think it's fairly likely you are masons, and it baffles me you wouldn't claim at the beginning of a day if this is true. Why did IcyTea self-vote when you could confirm each other at the start of today? I'm not super familiar with mason play, but I believe that's the right play, or at least hold off on claiming today if you want to be sneaky.

[4maskwolf]

4mask & IcyTea:

Icy tea and I are masons.

Uh huh. Makes sense to protect your buddy IcyTea.

This is such a horrendously bad take I have difficulty seeing it as anything other than a scum knee-jerk. Protect him from what, the one person voting him? There are plenty of legitimate concerns that could be raised around our claim, but “you’re just trying to protect him” after the wagon has already collapsed isn’t one of them.

Icy tea and I are masons.

Uh huh. Makes sense to protect your buddy IcyTea.

This is literally the opposite of what is happening (anti-wifom planned reveal aside). The best reads on 4maskwolf in this game were "I forgot he was playing", and I think more people were waiting on answers from him than on anyone else besides maybe Tric and you.

Sorry, this is a misunderstanding I should have cleared up earlier. I'm not implying you're scum buddies. Mafia would be giving up half of their team to lynch me, I don't believe that's true at all. I think it's likely you both aren't mafia.

I think it's fairly likely you are masons, and it baffles me you wouldn't claim at the beginning of a day if this is true. Why did IcyTea self-vote when you could confirm each other at the start of today? I'm not super familiar with mason play, but I believe that's the right play, or at least hold off on claiming today if you want to be sneaky.

I won’t speak for the specifics of IcyTea’s mentality re: that self-vote, but I’d always intended to claim today, it was just a matter of getting agreement from Icy. Once his whole self-vote thing started we were holding it in reserve in case he got too much heat and wound up in serious jeopardy, but the wagon fell apart over the course of yesterday and he’s gone back to a more normal playstyle so there’s no reason to hold it as a trap card (and also, trying to use “masons” as a get out of jail free past day one or maybe two is super sus). This morning was just the first time we were both online and in agreement.

[ToonyMan]

Writing a post right now, but I can respond to that now 4mask:

I won’t speak for the specifics of IcyTea’s mentality re: that self-vote, but I’d always intended to claim today, it was just a matter of getting agreement from Icy. Once his whole self-vote thing started we were holding it in reserve in case he got too much heat and wound up in serious jeopardy, but the wagon fell apart over the course of yesterday and he’s gone back to a more normal playstyle so there’s no reason to hold it as a trap card (and also, trying to use “masons” as a get out of jail free past day one or maybe two is super sus). This morning was just the first time we were both online and in agreement.

I think I could believe that, which is really frustrating since I find it incredibly humiliating against my townplay to be the vote candidate of masons. I definitely disagree with both of your plays this day, but I see why you want me dead right now.

Another question:
I don't see masons in the alignment rules. Is that the actual name it's going by?

[IcyTea31]

Dolores, Tea, and NJW: You seem to think Toony is scum, and a more compelling lynch than Tric, a very likely third party. Your reasonings feel like weak standard D1 guess lynches.
What success % odds do you give that Toony is scum, and why is lynching him at those odds our best D1 play?

The odds are unquantifiable and change with every post anyone makes, but at the moment, I'm certain enough to rest my vote on him, barring some unexpected development.

Of my other scum reads, Fallacy I haven't had a deep enough personal engagement with yet, and Jim and Toaster are being passive and other players don't agree with me enough yet to realistically put them on the block.

Of the other popular lynch candidates, I think TricMagic honestly thinks he's playing town-sided (if not town), and Leafsnail hasn't provided enough to really form a read on them, though that in itself is telling.

Lynching TricMagic as third-party is a decent enough backup plan if we can't find mafia, but that's a failure mode.

I think it's fairly likely you are masons, and it baffles me you wouldn't claim at the beginning of a day if this is true. Why did IcyTea self-vote when you could confirm each other at the start of today? I'm not super familiar with mason play, but I believe that's the right play, or at least hold off on claiming today if you want to be sneaky.

This way, I could both make the claim early enough for it to matter, and to use it as a sneaky safety net for a gambit. What advantage would the town have got if we claimed earlier that we didn't get by claiming now?

I don't see masons in the alignment rules. Is that the actual name it's going by?

Our alignment is Town, of course. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be masons.

[IcyTea31]

I don't see masons in the alignment rules. Is that the actual name it's going by?

Our alignment is Town, of course. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be masons.

EBWOP: Say, why are you asking? Since you knew the "correct" play for masons, clearly you should already know the mechanics well enough?