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Author Topic: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog  (Read 7100 times)

Manveru Taurënér

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2020, 09:06:40 am »


@Manveru Taurënér

About dishonesty in my question. Where it suppose to be? There is no German custom of white lies in any of our Slavic cultures, with exception to Russia and communists, with their Euro-Asian culture. Russians are a topic for themselves, not related to DF. With Slavs you have to be honest and direct and to the point. Like in the army. With bottle of mead to share, if not something stronger. As Westerner, you may experience conversation with Slavic people as rude and impolite, but how you can call it dishonest?

About Antifa's reputation in Poland. Antifa is not exactly sisters of mercy... No matter who supports them.

About future of socialism in Poland? Beyond hanging from tree after a lynch from an angry Catholic mob, there will never be any.

You looking for dishonesty and lies, look to Western Europe (or to Moscow lol).

Don't know much about Poland really (despite passing through once) and didn't really consider that the cultural differences would be so huge, sorry for calling you dishonest then if it's just a case of completely different world views. Have gotten a bit cynical in recent years as well so it's hard not to assume at times that people are trying to be underhanded when a seemingly "extreme" viewpoint shows up in a loaded discussion.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2020, 10:33:23 am »

I am dissapointed with the offtopic offshoots in this thread as the circumstances surrounding the bay12 devlog being sidelined by the wider debate over the riots was not the focus which would be better suited to the AmeriPol thread and other outlets; and yes this thread is meant in sincerity for people who had been doubting my intentions with my expression of opinion.

I do feel some regret for opening this pandora's box with how things have panned out. A minority of the responses are discourteously meaner than they need to be in explaining their point. Could we reel it in and please try to remain civil?

I wasn't going to post a second time. But as I'm back I advise OP to move the thread over to (non-DF) General. I wouldn't be surprised if it got Mod-moved (or ROed or removed) but I imagine someone would say that's a sign of bias against some of the messages in this thread, so I call upon the good faith of OP to not make that an issue but to put it in a more appropriate place.  IMO.

Thank you for your helpful point and I would agree, but it is subjective to the content within the replies rather than the content that it was placed here, and since then has become off-topic. Moving the thread to my knowledge would be outside the scope of my control, so i would leave it to moderator discretion respectfully.

Huh, I never took the average DF player to be one of a political bent, but it seems many of you have been triggered by a few non-partisan lines written in the context of one of the largest series of protests in modern day. Non-partisan, you scoff? Let's take it point-by-point.

:snip: (rest of post, mainly outlaying a analysis of statements)

In terms of the bay12, actions speaking louder than words in that claiming it is non-partisanal is a projection of putting words into the brother's mouth, i would much rather them clearly state their intentions and divulge their thoughts, as such I will even mark this lime green to attract their attention.

So, there is no risk for Toady to get into jail in USA? Even if his donations may end in terrorist organization? Cool. Good to know. It better be so.

DF still has an unsolved issue with emotional system and the zone bug on largest embark, which Toady never bothered to fix. Toady better does not look for "smart" and "innovative" ways out from the deal (no matter his depression) to start continuously fixing (finally!) all those bugs by... getting himself jailed. :P :D

Its not a succinct reply to posts that have been made, but it is a relevant point on legal reprecussions could damage not only development of DF, but association with Kitfox and Steam. How Threetoe or Toady are meant to upkeep good contact after anysuch form of detention from legal reprecussion, especially if for reasons of reputation Steam bowed out it would be a sad end to the development of the graphical version's release there without alterative plans.
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Starver

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2020, 11:06:35 am »

As I understand it, the "for profit prison system" that seems to be the way some people get around the 13th Amendment (and then 15th, etc) is the incarceration that needs aboloshing. Black Lives Mattering does not mean Non-black Lives Matter-not, but right now (as Bumber's stat indicates) it seems the former needs highlighting (also Brown, Yellow, Red, etc, to the same ultimate degree but varying relative ones from current baseline).

It seems that cerrtain people are more likely to die in custody[1], instead of custody, while trapped in the prison system (from far from Capital offences), when released back into an increasingly disenfranchised world or by getting into non-legal (and illegal) situations that have maybe arisen from the absence of a parent, or the presence of a now hardened ex-con with few future career choices.

All Lives Matter, yes, but it is not the case that All Lives Are Tickety-Boo, so it's a disingenious attempt to dilute the brand. And when peaceful protests provoke the reactions they do (kneeling on a 'football' field, or even peacefully marching or sitting-in) I don't wonder that some people are provoked to more forceful protest.


Being from a country with a vivid history of football (soccer) hooliganism, I well understand that some people take up a cause just to take up arms, assuming they did not just drift into an extremist branch of a 'normal' supporter's system. But does that mean I should not buy a Millwall season ticket, lest am accused of being an active Bushwacker? Can I not support Luton without being an MIG? And a Hammer is probably just a Hammer, not a member of the Inter-City 'firm'.

As we're apparently sticking within the context of the Adams family supporting something (and I've seen misguided backlash for statements before), then we need to ensure we're not reading more into it than we ought to.


Never mind the deliberate agent-provoceteurs, which there seem to be copious evidence of.



[1] At the point of being grappled, anyway, I always think of "in custody" as starting at the point of being in a holding cell.
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Evaris

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2020, 02:23:31 pm »

Ultimately, I try to stay out of heated political debates on most days, but I feel it irresponsible for not give my take on the situation. 

Firstly in preface: Police brutality and militarization are clear issues with the police in the USA at this point, and there is a clear need for police to be reformed.  However, this does not mean defunding the police - a better course of action would be to reform the funding system, and provide a federal standard to which police must be trained.  As things stand, many states do not require psychological profiling or extensive training for their officers before they take on the badge.  There is also a clear lack of accountability in many instances due to the way police officers try to look after one another.   My personal issue with the racialization of what is a far more broad and nuanced topic aside (as police brutality is worse for whites on a per-crime [according to the FBI] basis, and depending on the statistic you're working with, worse for hispanics on a per-capita basis, at least in recent years - at least by 2018 statistics,) the fact remains that the police system in the USA is at present inherently easy to corrupt.  My personal opinion is that we should see;

1.  A federally standardized police training system, which incorporates annual psychological screening as part of the job.  Furthermore, standardization of police equipment and limitations of arms to that which civilians can own.  i.e. no NFA controlled firearms such as fully automatic weapons. 
2.  Removal of SWAT functions from police departments, as well as a regulatory prohibition on no-knock raids.  In instances where such are deemed necessary, this should be a function of the National Guard, for which a branch of which may be formed.  However, it should not be considered part of "normal" police duties, and has been clearly shown to lead to police officers adopting a militerized, us-vs-them mentality.
3.  Ending of the for-profit prison system.  All such prisons should be purchased by the federal government and overseen as such from here-on, as private prisons have a clear connection to many prosecutors across the USA which has led to vast over-prosecution and unjust incarceration. 
4.  Ending of the war on drugs.  This has not only been a colossal failure, but has led to a grand cycle of incarceration for those lower in socioeconomic status. 
5.  The development of a federal oversight justice board, whose one task is to investigate potential crimes committed by police officers.  Furthermore, it is my belief that police officers should be held to a higher standard, and receive the maximum possible sentence for any crime which they may commit should it be found they do so maliciously.

I believe, were such actions taken, we would see a great change to policing across the united states for the better, without the many, many issues which defunding or abolishment of the police would cause.


However, as for other concerns raised in this thread, I feel the need to bring retort to such.
1.  There is clear concern in regards to the possibility of funds going to Antifa.  As for those saying that it is "merely a concept" I am afraid it is no more such than many middle eastern terrorist groups.  As things stand, Antifa has a core ideology book, cells which publicly identify as such with uniforms, sell their uniforms and book of ideology, have clear avenues of funding with business accounts, their cells have hierarchical structures as organizations, etc.  They operate much in the way that various gangs or terrorist cells do, and as such can be considered such.  Furthermore, members of Antifa have now been linked to murders caused in recent riots, and portray themselves as a communist group, while also taking the name of a historical communist group.  As such, it can be legally declared that they are politically motivated, such being the determinator between the difference between such a group being designated as a gang or a terrorist group. With that said, it is unlikely Toady has any risk of seeing jail time, unless Toady himself were active in criminal activity after declaring support for such an organization, or he were directly providing money to the organization rather than second-hand.  However, he may see himself put on a watchlist or actively survived.  Albeit realistically speaking, in the age of the patriot act, essentially everyone is anyway, if not as in depth. 

2.  Ultimately, support for protests sees opposition regardless who is doing it.  Regardless of what is given the spotlight in the US's political sphere, ultimately it's been historically rather even irrespective of the topic.  With that said, there is a difference between a protest, and a riot -  and in the riots of the past week, we have seen more than 11 people have been confirmed to be killed in these riots by rioters and looters.  There may be more which have yet to be confirmed.  Property damages have reached the hundreds of millions, and low-income housing as well as small business owners have been disproportionately hit.  At this point, the riots aren't even about justice anymore, and have become selfish indulgence for those participating, or a blind act of rage.  It is, in my opinion, an injustice that must end, and those arrested while participating in such should see criminal charges for their actions during such, be it property damage, theft, assault, or for those so involved in the deaths of innocents, murder and manslaughter.   
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 02:34:20 pm by Evaris »
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Putnam

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2020, 06:19:07 pm »

I'm gonna say what I'm sure has been said a few times and say the dedicated abusive policing thread on this forum is here.

My opinion on this thread is that this is the Dwarf Fortress discussion subforum and thus this is not the place. There is a general discussion subforum with a dedicated thread to it, and that's the place. I'll even post my own position there to show that I'm not just being a coward or whatever, I just legitimately think threads should go where they belong.

EDIT: Position as promised, in the appropriate thread.

EDIT 2: On the metametalevel I recognize this is minimodding, but I'm not, like, trying to twist anyone's arm here, and I'm not going to the mods, so whatever.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 06:23:07 pm by Putnam »
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nwr1_cronus

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2020, 07:16:40 pm »

Depressing to see that so many members of the DF community are alt-right or alt-right adjacent CHUDs.  On the other hand, it's funto see that these same people that enjoy a game about ASCII dorfs digging holes get so easily wounded when their worldviews are challenged in the least offensive way possible.  As Put says, this should probably be redirected onto the appropriate thread (posted above).  Better yet, you fascists could just delete your accounts and spare the forums your ignorance/hatred. 
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Rolan7

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2020, 07:49:00 pm »

(Seems like this is a Lower Forums subject. Looks funny that I'm seeing it under Upper Forums colour scheme.)
I'm sorry but I don't think we'll ever see eye-to-eye on ever allowing light mode.  Good day!!
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She/they
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Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Bumber

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2020, 07:51:29 pm »

Depressing to see that so many members of the DF community are alt-right or alt-right adjacent CHUDs.  On the other hand, it's funto see that these same people that enjoy a game about ASCII dorfs digging holes get so easily wounded when their worldviews are challenged in the least offensive way possible.  As Put says, this should probably be redirected onto the appropriate thread (posted above).  Better yet, you fascists could just delete your accounts and spare the forums your ignorance/hatred.

Who are you even talking about here? Looks like you're just trying to flame-bait and troll.
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

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kaijyuu

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2020, 07:57:41 pm »

As others have stated, and I hope will continue to state until this thread is closed/gone, there is already a dedicated threat re: current politics in the lower boards section. Making new threads just seems like it's trying to put one's own opinion in higher visibility than other's.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Bumber

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2020, 08:16:48 pm »

I think the OP states sufficiently why it belongs in this section. It's about what Toady posted in the dev log and the ramifications for DF development and donations. That other users have been trying to drag the discussion off-topic or get it locked is not quite a valid reason to move it.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 08:19:57 pm by Bumber »
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

Rolan7

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2020, 08:28:48 pm »

I think the OP states sufficiently why it belongs in this section. It's about what Toady posted in the dev log and the ramifications for DF development and donations. That other users have been trying to drag the discussion off-topic or get it locked is not quite a valid reason to move it.
That's very obviously not the reason.  People have already discussed that Toady made a statement.  Everyone then moved on to talking about the political situation behind the statement, ignoring Toady altogether, when there's already a very nice thread for that.
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Starver

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2020, 08:35:53 pm »

It isn't even a gameplay issue with Dwarf Fortress itself.

Meanwhile, y'all have completely missed the point that Tarn obviously is pro-COVID, as evidenced by his inclusion of Syndromes that spread by contact with contaminated surfaces!
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2020, 08:48:45 pm »

I think the OP states sufficiently why it belongs in this section. It's about what Toady posted in the dev log and the ramifications for DF development and donations. That other users have been trying to drag the discussion off-topic or get it locked is not quite a valid reason to move it.
It has nothing to do with the game at all. It's using the game as an excuse to state a political opinion.

Toady is supporting the same causes his producer is supporting on the platform Dwarf Fortess premium is being released on (the other one). Now does this mean they're all going to jail together? Maybe, who knows what's going on with the US right now. But I don't think anyone's going to be falling out over this.

https://twitter.com/KitfoxGames/status/1268233619228758022?s=19
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ShinQuickMan

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2020, 09:22:16 pm »

Forgive me if my Google-fu is weak on the matter, but I'm having trouble substantiating some claims around here:

But we can dissect that BLM is currently orbiting a state declared terrorist group (ANTIFA) currently under investigation and active use of the Insurrection Act (last deployed in the 1992 riots under similar circumstances) with postings of the National Guard around the country to keep order, so not I do feel like to suddenly come out with this statement publically that player contributions were indirectly funding these groups as misguided altruism could not invoke concern and worry that contributions will be likely used to fuel the situation.

Are you suggesting that actors in the BLM movement and "ANTIFA" (presumably a certain branch or branches) are coordinating with each other? Do you have a source?

1.  There is clear concern in regards to the possibility of funds going to Antifa.  As for those saying that it is "merely a concept" I am afraid it is no more such than many middle eastern terrorist groups.  As things stand, Antifa has a core ideology book, cells which publicly identify as such with uniforms, sell their uniforms and book of ideology, have clear avenues of funding with business accounts, their cells have hierarchical structures as organizations, etc.  They operate much in the way that various gangs or terrorist cells do, and as such can be considered such.  Furthermore, members of Antifa have now been linked to murders caused in recent riots, and portray themselves as a communist group, while also taking the name of a historical communist group.  As such, it can be legally declared that they are politically motivated, such being the determinator between the difference between such a group being designated as a gang or a terrorist group. With that said, it is unlikely Toady has any risk of seeing jail time, unless Toady himself were active in criminal activity after declaring support for such an organization, or he were directly providing money to the organization rather than second-hand.  However, he may see himself put on a watchlist or actively survived.  Albeit realistically speaking, in the age of the patriot act, essentially everyone is anyway, if not as in depth. 

Where, how, and from whom do ANTIFA groups receive funding? Where can we find confirmation of ANTIFA group members being responsible for murders during these riots?

« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 09:29:47 pm by ShinQuickMan »
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scriver

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Re: On the topic of the June 1'st Devlog
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2020, 12:46:01 am »

So in the light of the last few posts talking about the thread going off topic I'm going to forgo the things I wanted to reply from reading through the thread, and just state my agreement that I think there's nothing wrong with Toady writing about and staying his opinion on an the current happenings in his country and related politics.
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Love, scriver~
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