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[FantasticDorf]

Hi, I figure i don't want to make a explosive post about it, but i need to make some sort of discussional basis of a talking debate about it since some people I've spoken to this about have very different or conflicting views on the matter.

This situation in the US states, as a non US citizen does not affect myself neither might i say as a caucasian man strike me on a personally traumatic level but the circumstances around the current state of rioting, and the arrest that sparked the fuse is shocking, with condolences going out the family of George Floyd, and those currently affected by the devestation and violence.

But we can dissect that BLM is currently orbiting a state declared terrorist group (ANTIFA) currently under investigation and active use of the Insurrection Act (last deployed in the 1992 riots under similar circumstances) with postings of the National Guard around the country to keep order, so not I do feel like to suddenly come out with this statement publically that player contributions were indirectly funding these groups as misguided altruism could not invoke concern and worry that contributions will be likely used to fuel the situation.

Additionally to undermine the expected high standard of the police and prison systems without first seeking justice & reform to root out abuses of authority is harmful to the safety of all communities as a whole. And does not progress the movement of civil rights as does all this other rioting, kidnapping and looting which the mentioned parties do not acknowledge or individual members passively incite with rhetoric. Many emergency services are presently already acting to honor the memory of George Floyd by trying to settle these riots back into peaceful demonstrations.

So i will be retracting my future finanicial support (not currently being a donator) towards the steam release, but as always very grateful for the commitment and passion you put into the DF project. Im only a single person, but i might reflect the opinions of a few players who feel slightly alienated by this talking point of politics not abstract from the game.

[Bumber]

I suspect that defunding the police won't necessarily make things safer or less prone to abuse, either. You might end up losing good cops from a pay cut, while those who seek to abuse their power find that enough reward in of itself.

The more targeted approach would be legal action against perpetrators of abuse and those who enable them.

[Ziusudra]

Hi, I figure i don't want to make a explosive post about it, but i need to make some sort of discussional basis of a talking debate

You say "discussion" and "debate" but have already made up your mind.

[voliol]

The June 1 devlog? You mean the Bay 12 Report which made the statement ”though the world is going to hell.” right? Because the main devlog is currently down as far as I know. While dramatic, the statement is quite impartial, likely because they rely on donations and thus avoid taking political stances. Let’s not do it for them, and focus on Dwarf Fortress in the Dwarf Fortress forum.

That’s it for me. Consider the AmeriPol thread.

[Bumber]

The June 1 devlog? You mean the Bay 12 Report which made the statement ”though the world is going to hell.” right? Because the main devlog is currently down as far as I know.

Here's the monthly report, and the Future of the Fortress. Sorry for the outages over the last few days. Our site and the Dwarf Fortress File Depot may still be on and offline a bit while we migrate to a new hosting company.

While the protests against the murder of George Floyd and police brutality, and the ensuing police riot, continue in this country, we don't want to be silent, nor do we want to make a generic brand statement. So, specifically, we support efforts to defund the police, as well as those to minimize and abolish incarceration. No amount of protection afforded to white people is worth the horror we continue to perpetuate in this country against millions in marginalized communities. Black lives matter.

It's likely those of you that want to contribute to relevant funds have located some already. We've given to Rebuild Lake Street, the BLM Seattle Freedom Fund, and Reclaim the Block. Minnesota Freedom Fund will be linking additional organizations as well.

[voliol]

The June 1 devlog? You mean the Bay 12 Report which made the statement ”though the world is going to hell.” right? Because the main devlog is currently down as far as I know.

Here's the monthly report, and the Future of the Fortress. Sorry for the outages over the last few days. Our site and the Dwarf Fortress File Depot may still be on and offline a bit while we migrate to a new hosting company.

While the protests against the murder of George Floyd and police brutality, and the ensuing police riot, continue in this country, we don't want to be silent, nor do we want to make a generic brand statement. So, specifically, we support efforts to defund the police, as well as those to minimize and abolish incarceration. No amount of protection afforded to white people is worth the horror we continue to perpetuate in this country against millions in marginalized communities. Black lives matter.

It's likely those of you that want to contribute to relevant funds have located some already. We've given to Rebuild Lake Street, the BLM Seattle Freedom Fund, and Reclaim the Block. Minnesota Freedom Fund will be linking additional organizations as well.

I see. Never mind, then.

[Nopenope]

I don't know what people expected from someone who wrote a game literally called "Liberal Crime Squad". If that wasn't enough, their expanding at length about their precarious healthcare and "the current political situation" when they announced the Steam release should have given people more than definite hints as to the Adams brothers' political orientation.

Anyway I don't see how this has anything to do with Slaves to Armok: God of Blood: Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress. If you want to support the development of the game, donate, if you don't want to, don't donate. Whether they give to political causes or not is entirely outside your control and shouldn't come into play since donations are explicitly free of any binding clause. Hell, they could have donated half their income to the CCP for the last ten years without any of you noticing and it wouldn't have affected your opinion and enjoyment of the game.

[FantasticDorf]

I don't know what people expected from someone who wrote a game literally called "Liberal Crime Squad". If that wasn't enough, their expanding at length about their precarious healthcare and "the current political situation" when they announced the Steam release should have given people more than definite hints as to the Adams brothers' political orientation.

At any reasonable stretch I can put to the side that liberal crime squad is as fictitious as DF is, so i hadn't put any particular thought or really cared about the motivations behind it. Goes in hand with saying why should it matter, as far as im aware its not a drawing point if the brothers are or are not "liberal" in their beliefs.

Anyway I don't see how this has anything to do with Slaves to Armok: Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress. If you want to support the development of the game, donate, if you don't want to, don't donate.

The brothers themselves brought the spectre of politics into the discussion into DF, and conciously im trying to help them with feedback within the sphere of questioning why it was brought up. The choice remains with the player on how they feel about these events put into perspective.

[Nopenope]

I mean, it's their blog. They have posted about plenty of non-DF things over the years, including Scamps, the summer heat, game conventions, and lutefisk. And again, I don't get why people should suddenly feel strongly about their displaying political beliefs in the open. It's not like they're running for political office, or challenging you, the player, to a debate. They're just posting about something they care about on their blog.

As a comparison point and precedent, the Rimworld dude had a pretty (in my opinion) weird and passive-aggressive reaction to being called out about his different implementation of female vs. male pawns in his game (incl. his implementation of sexuality) but people moved on. People who enjoyed the game kept enjoying it despite the dev being weird about that particular aspect.

[Starver]

I don't see a problem with having a viewpoint ('on all sides'). I have problems with actual rioting, but I also have problems with what caused that rioting. And for every person who suggests that Soros paid for it, there's evidence that other instigators from the other side has compounded it, never mind one particular individual who has effectively pushed the whole AntiFa boogieman into existence by not just being terrible in his job, but seems to think his job is to be terrible.

So that's where I stand, judge me how you will. Not sure I would defund the police; though, living in what seems to be a slightly saner country where only the government itself tends to want to defund the police, and every other good thing, I'm isolated from feeling the groundswell opinions that clearly run through portions of the US.

As far as the http://bay12games.com/dwarves/ devlog message goes, and how you should react to it, feel free to do anything (legal) you want to about it. You've got the First Amendment (for the time being) over there, however much you grade it compared to some of the other ammendments (2nd, 4th, 8th, 21st and 25th represent a wide range). Truth, Justice and The American Way, in whatever way you think that applies to you.

(Seems like this is a Lower Forums subject. Looks funny that I'm seeing it under Upper Forums colour scheme.)

[Arbinire]

All I can really say on the matter is, careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

It's a just pity those of us who have a clue what the end result in all of this will be, aren't reacting to everything emotionally and looking at it objectively and the very real history behind similar situations in the past, have to get it too.

[Molly]

I don't think this post belongs in this forum, but since it's here I'll make a quick reply - OP made some interesting points about voting with their dollar. After reading them, I have decided to pledge to the Bay 12 Patreon in their stead (in addition to the contributions I've made to causes like the ones Toady and Threetoe listed).

I've been playing this game forever, I might as well pay for it.

[Sarmatian123]

If or when Toady goes to jail, will anyone continue his work on DF or at least be patching the bugs or fixing maybe the emotional system?

I just read on main page, that Toady intends to donate his money to a variety of organizations acting on purpose of de-funding American police, if I understood his message well. I do not know, if any of these funds are connected to Antifa. Maybe none is, maybe them all are. The issue with Antifa is, when it will become a domestic terrorist organisation in USA, then anyone giving money to a terrorist organisation may be arrested and go to jail. I am sure Toady will follow his own path there, but I am worry about continuous development of Dwarf Fortress to be honest.

[Uthimienure]

If that day comes, it will be a sad one for our little fan community here at the DF forum.
Unfortunately, the surveillance state we live in (exponentially accelerated by 9/11) could in fact make that happen.
(Actually, it wouldn't even require a surveillance state's capability to make that happen, wouldn't be a simple public record issue?)

[Ziusudra]

I do not know, if any of these funds are connected to Antifa.

It's a pretty easy thing to find out. How about you do that instead of spreading sensationalist FUD.