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[Salmeuk]

Huh, I never took the average DF player to be one of a political bent, but it seems many of you have been triggered by a few non-partisan lines written in the context of one of the largest series of protests in modern day. Non-partisan, you scoff? Let's take it point-by-point.

While the protests against the murder of George Floyd and police brutality, and the ensuing police riot, continue in this country, we don't want to be silent, nor do we want to make a generic brand statement.

Acknowledging that things are happening in the world. You'd be surprised by how many people take this sort of acknowledgement as an overt political statement. I guess it is? Kind of like how even mentioning global warming was politicized by the fossil fuel industry, which is pretty silly since it's discovery was anything but. Of course that industry had the most to lose from it's acknowledgement, and spent a lot of money trying to convince people it was anything but certain. There are a lot of angry people who are saying a lot of angry things. I understand that can be kind of scary, however it isn't just a bunch of 'thugs' making noise about nothing. Refusing to acknowledge reality is an American tradition, I get that, but please try to put on your big-boy boots and listen to what they are shouting about.

So, specifically, we support efforts to defund the police, as well as those to minimize and abolish incarceration.

Defund the police? But don't we need the police? Sure, but look at the recent history of the militarization of police forces across the country to see what Toady is referencing. Does your local police precinct need a literal APC to write speeding tickets? If you're concerned about the terrorism, why then do towns of 25,000 need the same gear?
There is also the thorny history of crowd-control techniques. Rubber bullets, tear gas, and tazers can kill people (google it), and the rationalizations that are used to justify their use tend towards 'Property is more important than Human lives' side of American politics. Please take a moment to read up on the history of tear gas and it's inclusion in the day-to-day equipment of modern police. Would you give your next-door-neighbor the right to incapacitate, blind, or even kill you, if they felt you were breaking the law? No? What, you don't trust the judgement of your fellow citizen?

Well too bad, because if that neighbor is a cop, they have that right, and a majority of them aren't afraid to use it.

No amount of protection afforded to white people is worth the horror we continue to perpetuate in this country against millions in marginalized communities. Black lives matter.

If you think this is political then you're part of the problem. Step our of your cave and realize the horror of the modern racial divide.

In any case this is not the correct subforum. I just hope those of you that take offense to an acknowledgement of current events read this post and rethink your own opinion. Argue with me in PM's, if you must.

[Starver]

The War On Antifa is even more hopeless than The War On Drugs.  At least there are physical drugs. Antifa is a concept. What's more, by coming down hard on anyone who looks Antifa-like, you're going to look even more Fascist to be Anti-of by those who didn't see the point. See also The War On Terror. (Apparently we're still bombing IS, but we can't be, because Trump already defeated them.)

But ignoring whether we go all 1984, Fahrenheut 451 or The Man Who Would Be Thursday, in the future, it's just a handy boogieman. Hyped like "the caravan" (apparently only happening when Trump needed it to happen), but differently a short-term 'solution'.  Ditto, the concept of "Q" is conjured up as an ally to be associated with.  With the added complication of it being self-reinforcing (that which isn't reinforced by bad actors coming in and stirring things up).


There are so many problems with proclaiming Antifa to be a terrorist organisation (never mind not proclaiming a number of right-wing ones to be under the same rules of behavioural tolerance). But it suits a particular narrative to try to be associated with "LAW AND ORDER" (IMO, more Flaw And Ordure) by inciting the issue.

As to the police, there's quite obviously more than a single bad apple in that apple-barrel. I wouldn't say the solution is to not pay for so many apples (again, I'm not someone who is geographically or ethnically as liable to be a victim of police - though there was that traffic officer once who obviously had had a bad day and caused me hastle that he needn't have[1]) but I'm sure I'd be happy to fund any organisation that points out particularly bad barrelling policies and lobbies for much needed changes. How the changes can happen is anyone's guess, and above my pay-grade. "Funding Antifa" just isn't a thing on my radar, though, any more than tipping a waiter is going to help propogate mime artists.


I wasn't going to post a second time. But as I'm back I advise OP to move the thread over to (non-DF) General. I wouldn't be surprised if it got Mod-moved (or ROed or removed) but I imagine someone would say that's a sign of bias against some of the messages in this thread, so I call upon the good faith of OP to not make that an issue but to put it in a more appropriate place.  IMO.


[1] If you want to know:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Apparently I was drifting across the road. I maintain that I was pretty much on a consistent positiin within my half of the road, given it was an inside bend with cars parked part on the corner, and I took a precautionary line (further out than a 'racing' line, and no apex to it) in case of surprises like car doors opening on me, or reasonably anything with two or four legs darting out between them, so I was consistently close to the centre-line, doing less than the statutory limit on a road with no oncoming traffic (that would only have hit me if they were dangerously over the centre-line and going too fast so I couldn't react. I had a roadside breathaliser test (having answered, truthfully, that I had had a glass of wine at my parents', some hours before, for which the only positive result was my now having the 'souvenir' single-use breathing tube as keepsake, and no further follow-up... Maybe I had to take my insurance documents to a local station, as a formality, but I forget if that was then and/or a different spot-check under different circumstances that was a more legitimate and amicable (but equally soluble) check.

[LennyTheRed]

So i will be retracting my future finanicial support (not currently being a donator) towards the steam release,

I am a past and current financial supporter of Bay 12 and I couldn't be happier that Tarn has decided to make a clear and concise statement about police brutality instead of remaining silent.

In honor of your totally pointless gesture, I will increase my contribution to Bay 12 this quarter by 5 times, to $250.

Eat shit.

-A

[Uthimienure]

Wow, that was a completely uncalled for and rude post, Lenny.
Yes, the world situation is a bit crazy, but... personal attacks against those who believe differently than you do are out of place.

[Remalle]

Wow, that was a completely uncalled for and rude post, Lenny.
Yes, the world situation is a bit crazy, but... personal attacks against those who believe differently than you do are out of place.

Eat shit.

[PatrikLundell]

Wow, that was a completely uncalled for and rude post, Lenny.
Yes, the world situation is a bit crazy, but... personal attacks against those who believe differently than you do are out of place.

Eat shit.

It looks like some posters are adamant in forcing Toady to deal with this thread, regardless of whether they claim to (sort of) have opinions aligning with his or not.

[therahedwig]

I do not know, if any of these funds are connected to Antifa.

It's a pretty easy thing to find out. How about you do that instead of spreading sensationalist FUD.

Ah, just a small defence of samartian here, he's not from America. And for us non-americans, the situation in the US is very hard to grasp right now (Like, I know about blm, and I know the US police forces are frigging bizare, but everytime I look at the current USA situation it feels like seeing a dustcloud).

For my part, I think the Adams brothers have always been very careful with their decisions, and I trust that they as US citizens have a much firmer grasp of the situation, so I'll continue to trust them and their ability to navigate their own political landscape. I will remain excited to buy the steam/itch release, despite me not necessarily needing graphics and it not being on the platform I would play it on.

[Bumber]

No amount of protection afforded to white people is worth the horror we continue to perpetuate in this country against millions in marginalized communities. Black lives matter.

If you think this is political then you're part of the problem. Step our of your cave and realize the horror of the modern racial divide.

Implying that cops only protect white people. As if black people don't account for nearly half of all homicide victims.

[Sarmatian123]

I feel like called to write some comment, despite still none gave answer to my question.

"Black Lives Matter" policy (Democrats) or opposing it "All Lives Matter" policy (Republicans) - to be honest, I do not care which is superior or inferior, so long USA remains an ally to Poland.

The issue is Antifa. A German socialist cult, acting out alike Nazis from early 20th century. German Antifa tourists were visiting Poland, so terrorism of Antifa is well known to Polish people and well documented. Holokaust memory is still fresh in Poland, specially that Germans still refuse to pay damages to its Polish victims, whom were majority of nationals killed in the Holocaust. An action to outlaw this German socialist cult, as a terrorist organisation (even in Poland) surely wouldn't lift any eyebrows in Poland. So, out of this concern I was writing my question. I wasn't making some political rant, but asked politely what about Dwarf Fortress, because it was missing in Toady's statement on front page. People funding terror organisations do go to prison, everywhere in the democratic world. No matter ideology behind these terror organisations. No matter how people feel justified and right in funding terrorist organisations.

[Manveru Taurënér]

I feel like called to write some comment, despite still none gave answer to my question.

"Black Lives Matter" policy (Democrats) or opposing it "All Lives Matter" policy (Republicans) - to be honest, I do not care which is superior or inferior, so long USA remains an ally to Poland.

The issue is Antifa. A German socialist cult, acting out alike Nazis from early 20th century. German Antifa tourists were visiting Poland, so terrorism of Antifa is well known to Polish people and well documented. Holokaust memory is still fresh in Poland, specially that Germans still refuse to pay damages to its Polish victims, whom were majority of nationals killed in the Holocaust. An action to outlaw this German socialist cult, as a terrorist organisation (even in Poland) surely wouldn't lift any eyebrows in Poland. So, out of this concern I was writing my question. I wasn't making some political rant, but asked politely what about Dwarf Fortress, because it was missing in Toady's statement on front page. People funding terror organisations do go to prison, everywhere in the democratic world. No matter ideology behind these terror organisations. No matter how people feel justified and right in funding terrorist organisations.

There's not much answer to give to such a thoroughly dishonest question. Just because there are some people labelling themselves as antifa who join protests the world over and take things way too far that doesn't mean that anyone involved with or supportive of the original protest becomes a terrorist (even if certain people in power would very much like to use that excuse to lock up any and all protesters, peaceful or not).

[Arbinire]

I feel like called to write some comment, despite still none gave answer to my question.

"Black Lives Matter" policy (Democrats) or opposing it "All Lives Matter" policy (Republicans) - to be honest, I do not care which is superior or inferior, so long USA remains an ally to Poland.

The issue is Antifa. A German socialist cult, acting out alike Nazis from early 20th century. German Antifa tourists were visiting Poland, so terrorism of Antifa is well known to Polish people and well documented. Holokaust memory is still fresh in Poland, specially that Germans still refuse to pay damages to its Polish victims, whom were majority of nationals killed in the Holocaust. An action to outlaw this German socialist cult, as a terrorist organisation (even in Poland) surely wouldn't lift any eyebrows in Poland. So, out of this concern I was writing my question. I wasn't making some political rant, but asked politely what about Dwarf Fortress, because it was missing in Toady's statement on front page. People funding terror organisations do go to prison, everywhere in the democratic world. No matter ideology behind these terror organisations. No matter how people feel justified and right in funding terrorist organisations.

There's not much answer to give to such a thoroughly dishonest question. Just because there are some people labelling themselves as antifa who join protests the world over and take things way too far that doesn't mean that anyone involved with or supportive of the original protest becomes a terrorist (even if certain people in power would very much like to use that excuse to lock up any and all protesters, peaceful or not).

As you can see, you'll never get a straight answer from American Liberals because they're particularly resistant to facts and data.  They openly attack anyone with a differing viewpoint, and are incapable of debate or accepting opposing viewpoints.  They're worse than religious fanatics when it comes to their belief systems.  They wont be able to define what any of their catch phrases are, because you're just supposed to have faith that they are right and righteous.  Marx had a term for exactly the type of behavior these people are displaying.

So again I say, careful what you wish for.  You might just get it.

[MCreeper]

Pretty please, move this shit to lower forums.

[Manveru Taurënér]

As you can see, you'll never get a straight answer from American Liberals because they're particularly resistant to facts and data.  They openly attack anyone with a differing viewpoint, and are incapable of debate or accepting opposing viewpoints.  They're worse than religious fanatics when it comes to their belief systems.  They wont be able to define what any of their catch phrases are, because you're just supposed to have faith that they are right and righteous.  Marx had a term for exactly the type of behavior these people are displaying.

So again I say, careful what you wish for.  You might just get it.

If you actually mean me, I'm neither American nor a Liberal. Feel free to read your own advice and do some self-reflection if possible (especially the part about what all the catch phases you're using actually mean). I could probably have used a better word than dishonest, but I mean, someone expressing (probably feigned?) worry that Toady is now going to go to jail for supporting terrorism, just yikes.

Edit: And yeah, maybe belongs more in the non-DF general discussion, though the OP was specifically about how it relates to DF so eh.

[Ekaton]

It’s the beauty of free speech, and Toady’s site is his to publish whatever he wants. Even if I profoundly disagree with “abolishing incarceration” (what does it even mean, dangerous people walking freely?), I respect his beliefs and I think it’s great that he takes a public stand on a matter he profoundly believes in.

It’s even alright for Sarmatian to somehow make this about Poland, but I think that the amount of OT in this topic is so staggering, it should be closed, or moved elsewhere. It’s not relevant to DF or it’s development at all.

Edit: To stay relevant to the OP, I don’t think it will affect Toady in any way, and he is not going to get punished for speaking his mind or even donating to registered anti-government organisations. He lives in the free world, I know things may be different in Eastern Europe, but U.S. doesn’t put people in prison for that.

[Sarmatian123]

So, there is no risk for Toady to get into jail in USA? Even if his donations may end in terrorist organization? Cool. Good to know. It better be so.

DF still has an unsolved issue with emotional system and the zone bug on largest embark, which Toady never bothered to fix. Toady better does not look for "smart" and "innovative" ways out from the deal (no matter his depression) to start continuously fixing (finally!) all those bugs by... getting himself jailed.




@Manveru Taurënér

About dishonesty in my question. Where it suppose to be? There is no German custom of white lies in any of our Slavic cultures, with exception to Russia and communists, with their Euro-Asian culture. Russians are a topic for themselves, not related to DF. With Slavs you have to be honest and direct and to the point. Like in the army. With bottle of mead to share, if not something stronger. As Westerner, you may experience conversation with Slavic people as rude and impolite, but how you can call it dishonest?

About Antifa's reputation in Poland. Antifa is not exactly sisters of mercy... No matter who supports them.

About future of socialism in Poland? Beyond hanging from tree after a lynch from an angry Catholic mob, there will never be any.

You looking for dishonesty and lies, look to Western Europe (or to Moscow lol).