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Author Topic: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Strategy Phase 10  (Read 42850 times)

Kashyyk

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Re: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Design Phase 6
« Reply #360 on: April 11, 2020, 10:24:26 am »

Where they sent their Angel is irrelevant.

They probably winning the Influence race. Assuming 3? Is equal odds of 3 or 4 (cos I think we would've noticed if they got a 5), they are winning by 3.5 points. Scholarly Towers is the only place we are definitely stronger than them. That is 3.5 points we have to make back, on top of the amount they gain whilst we're catching up.

Ethereal Armament also gives us a patch job on the combat lanes until we get actual gear. Assuming it is Common (which I'm hoping for, cos the Protectors are Acolytes), all our Uruks can use it. Sure it blunts the Magic Missile volley, but by your own admission the Angels will most likely be finding ways to negate that so options are always good. In addition to that and protecting our Consorts better, it will also give a heavy hitting option if we ever find an Angelic hideout to raid, and will give us another way to kill Shadows once we provide a means of seeing the things.

Honestly, Choking Smog has less of an effect on the Influence Lanes than Ethereal Armament. So if you don't think either are effective enough, suggest some others.

Finally, even if we did give the Protectors skills, one could easily argue that it was pointless so long as they had no decent gear to use, so claiming that gear first is bad is a pointless argument.
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TricMagic

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Re: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Design Phase 6
« Reply #361 on: April 11, 2020, 10:38:41 am »


Honestly, Choking Smog has less of an effect on the Influence Lanes than Ethereal Armament. So if you don't think either are effective enough, suggest some others.


I did suggest Dark Healing, remember? The spell that would be useful in multiple places. Outside of large groups going after the Keepers and what they guard, I assume multiple Keepers work together. So when facing one foe, a Keeper can just heal their allies while the others fight, boosting their survival time to the point the other side loses from getting their bones broken by clubs. That and being able to heal a Consort is also an advantage in keeping them alive. Using one of the revisions for Consorts from last turn will sync together then, since the Keepers can keep them alive to use their abilities?

Also, in this case it was relevant, as since Magoc wasn't there, they won that round and get to choose.


I'll point out I knew they were going to send their angel there. Also, it's currently 2|2 as far as we know. We aren't losing quite yet.

However, focusing on improving our combat lane right now means we can focus more on INF in the future. We need our gear to actually be worth something to take full advantage of our forces.

I would also like an argument on why the Ethereal Armament is the best choice. What areas does it improve? The only one I currently see is giving Keepers a sword and shield, which is kinda meh. Doesn't solve their own mediocrity.
They have 2/5 in one INF area we have in 3, we are behind

I have no clue what the above sentence means.


DARRIN (Combat)
Dry Plains: 4/4 | 0/4
Mountain Passes: 3/4 | 1/4
Rice Terraces: 0/4 | 4/4

LESIMOR (Influence)
Fortified Frontier: 3?/5 | 2/5
Lawless Capital: 3?/5 | 2/5
Scholarly Towers: 2/5 | 3/5

XA-NAM (Combat)
River Delta: 4/4 | 0/4
River Crossings: 3/4 | 1/4
Light Jungle: 0/4 | 4/4

DOLGOTH (Influence)
Trade City: 3?/5 | 2/5
Ostentatious Capital: 3/5 | 3/5
Wartorn Wastes: 3/5 | 3/5

So apparently they are ahead. The guards do not help us at all however, as it is reactive rather than offensive. If we want to mess with them, we have to strike at their operations. We're losing cause we are on the defense, we have no offense.

We are also kinda losing in the battle lanes, we let up on one, we get pushed back.



As a question, can someone point out flaws I made in my word wall? I had assumed Vs.Debate requires making points in your argument, after which the other would make their points in theirs. Instead I get arguments about INF Lanes vs. Combat Lanes, rather than the usefulness of the designs in advancing our ability.



Right. So right now, the angels outperform us when it comes to 1 on 1 combat and Army vs Army combat. This changes when we break their formations until they completely break down and retreat. at which point they hole up in their forts, which stops us from advancing that season.
The addition of the mourning wyverns and the skirmishers is going to have that tactic applied to us soon enough however.
Improving our gear will see us match the enemy in equipment, which will improve our combat ability. Not improving our gear will see us outperformed whenever the tide turns against us.
Barrier Magic is likely to be seen this turn from the angels to block our volley of magic missiles.(Theoretically). They then close up and tear us apart after we've had to deal with being picked off from range by the enchanted bows. Not to mention skirmishers striking at us and then retreating.
A general improvement to our gear will see us winning on the battlefront. No improvement on the battlefront will see us get pushed back to the fort, and then they will once again charge it, break in, and push us out of it. Unlike the issues we have had with pursuing.
Two spells could help with this. The first is the Smog, which can break formations, prevent accurate fire, and smoke them out of the forts.
The second is just copying them with Dark Healing. Our forces can now recover, and we are stronger than them. Which means we can push the forts and armies, and recover from damage dealt to us on approach and during/after battles.
Dark Healing can also be used by keepers, allowing a team of them to shuffle between defense and recovery. As well, it gives us a counter to their healing services, being able to offer our own.
Ethereal Armament, meanwhile, only improves the Guards. If used on the battlefield, Uruks can't use it without losing their spell slot. Acolytes don't have the physical training and shouldn't be on the front lines at all, not to mention if they are using it, they aren't attacking. Warcasters have the training, but have their own sword, and should be focusing more on magical attacks.
So it does not sufficiently improve their combat abilities compared to actual equipment.



« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 11:01:49 am by TricMagic »
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Kashyyk

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Re: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Design Phase 6
« Reply #362 on: April 11, 2020, 11:04:10 am »

The turn around time in a pitched battle between armies is much longer than in a back alley stabbing. Whilst healing may help in the combat lanes, it won't help in the Influence lane unless it is much faster.
 
Looking at the Angelic Infiltration list, the only things they do to gain Influence is Proselytise and Heal. The vast majority of their effectiveness is tied into slowing our own operations. From the very beginning they were blowing up booze stockpiles. There is no real operation of theirs to hurt beyond general shanking. That is why defence will benefit us so well. I'm confident that if they weren't constantly stabbing our guys we'd be making loads of progress. That is the thing we need to target. Thus our guards are actually the thing we need to improve the most.
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TricMagic

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Re: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Design Phase 6
« Reply #363 on: April 11, 2020, 11:12:35 am »

Another Option is to kill their people, so Assassination is a valid option.
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Man of Paper

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Re: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Design Phase 6
« Reply #364 on: April 11, 2020, 11:32:39 am »

It’s an option but it’s a bad one. Their guys are trained for stealth. If we hunt them we need to be able to detect and intercept them before they burn our shit/kill our dudes. That’s more of a gamble than just outright protecting the shit.
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Kashyyk

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Re: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Design Phase 6
« Reply #365 on: April 11, 2020, 11:34:53 am »

We could shank their medics, but that won't be as effective as killing their assassins.

The easiest way to kill a stealthy guy is to wait someone you expect him to show up, such as their target. That's how bodyguards work.
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Happerry

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« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 01:44:01 pm by Happerry »
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Forenia Forever!
GENERATION 11: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

TricMagic

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Re: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Design Phase 6
« Reply #367 on: April 11, 2020, 01:47:17 pm »

Quote from: AmbitiousMagocBox

() [HE] The Smouldering Forges :

(0) The Standards of Evil- The Ancient Workshops Restored :
(3) Alche-smelting : MoP, TricMagic, Happerry

(3) Spell: Choking Smog : MoP, DGR, Detoxicated
(6) Spell: Ethereal Armament : Kashyyk, Rockeater, DGR, Detoxicated, Happerry, TricMagic
() Dark Healing :


Let us get this turn done with then. Not that I find EA to my tastes at all, but I'll work with it.
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Kashyyk

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Rockeater

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Damnit people, this is why I said to keep the truce. Because now everyone's ganging up on the cats.
Also, don't forget to contact your local Eldritch Being(s), so that they can help with our mission to destroy the universe.

TricMagic

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Re: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Design Phase 6
« Reply #370 on: April 11, 2020, 02:47:06 pm »

Revision Time while we wait.

Demon Riders

By attaining(read stealing) some horses and bring them to our alchemists, they were put through a modified process of the Uruks, though without the ability to cast magic. Bringing them under our control, then burying them in the alchemic mud, they come out changed. Grey scales, large bodies, endurance and strengthened body alike. Flesh-eating Demon Horses who our Uruks can ride that won't tire out and have the muscles for large and high jumps, not to mention high-speed charges.

Make a saddle and some horse armor, link their control to their rider, give the Uruk a lance and plate armor, and the Demon Riders are ready to tear apart enemy lines.



Note due to MoP who says we need horses first, we could also make carriages to take our troops and supplies around more quickly.
I mean, Horses exist, right? That's my Logic, and it seems somewhat illogical to think otherwise. We just need to get some.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 04:08:11 pm by TricMagic »
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Man of Paper

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Re: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Design Phase 6
« Reply #371 on: April 11, 2020, 04:19:27 pm »

We’re not going to make any worthwhile cav in a revision. Don’t use me or my statements for anything when you’ve made it abundantly clear in the discord that you are not actually reading what I’ve been saying.
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TricMagic

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Re: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Design Phase 6
« Reply #372 on: April 11, 2020, 04:44:36 pm »

Well, I don't. You say because we don't have cavs or horses to revise, we can't make anything. But that limits us severely, yeah? If we can't use what we have on something else.

How hard can it be to get horses? Though I guess the Cav part in my head comes from my own proposed design where we'd actually have skilled workers to help out in this. Not so sure about the current one however, but I'm still writing ahead of time on the hope it rolls well.
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Man of Paper

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Re: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Design Phase 6
« Reply #373 on: April 11, 2020, 05:33:46 pm »

The only thing we have that you could possibly use as basis for making demon horses a revision is the fact that we have alchemy. But that’s such a departure from logical advancement (muh potions -> lizardhorse cav) that you’re begging for it to be impossible. We did chads as a design. The dudes that the uruks were based on were a design. And we had humans and alchemy both actively in our armory.

Yes our choice of revisions is limited. That’s the whole nature of revisions. If you want to do something drastically different from what is on hand then that’s a design. That’s practically the only fact that persists between every arms race, even the joke ones.

Stop acting like your design proposals are inherently better than everyone else’s for the most arbitrary reasons. Get off your high horse. Skilled workers in no way translates to people taming horses and people being trained to fight on them. I mean do you know how much goes into having combatready cav? You need stirrups to make it feasible first of all, and we’ll i don’t see any mention of those anywheres. Good luck using a lance without properly seating yourself.
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TricMagic

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Re: Demon Team - Chiaroscuro Arms Race: Design Phase 6
« Reply #374 on: April 11, 2020, 05:43:14 pm »

I was more thing the same method used to make the ravens listen to our orders, rather than training them to obey our orders. That method would take too long and wouldn't be in our experience to pull off in a revision.

Also, why would we make horses in a design compared to the fact the Angels got Wyverns in one?

Also-also, I kinda want something that would be very useful on the battle-front for the revision. Not that my revision is the only thing that could do that. It doesn't help that I wrote mine early and there are no others to compare, so of course it's the only option right now being discussed. Others don't exist yet.(Though they will eventually.)


Last-also, that last part of your post does make sense. Doesn't make it easier that I don't particularly like EA.
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