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[Shonai_Dweller]

the bed look weird, i think because the pillow is to small or the bed is to wide.

They're double beds. Pillow looks about the right size. Presumably there are two when the bed is shared.

[Starver]

So long as they don't feature many throw-cushions scattered all over the place... (What abominable race would have those? I don't think either Elves or Goblins would stoop so low.)

[ror6ax]

Straw beds from Gnomoria make a lot of sense on a certain level of fortress development. Or at least stone bunk beds. This reliance on wood for one of the very important needs is not dwarfy enough IMO.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Straw beds from Gnomoria make a lot of sense on a certain level of fortress development. Or at least stone bunk beds. This reliance on wood for one of the very important needs is not dwarfy enough IMO.

I'd hate to have to replace all the beds at a point when the game decides our dwarves have suddenly gained the knowledge of bed making (which they somehow forgot on their way from the mountain home). Or do straw mats get magically replaced by real beds when some gamey trigger is reached?

[Starver]

If it's not iust the visuals, then that's a game-mechanics change.

Spoiler: Which is not a Graphics issue, but here's my take on that (click to show/hide)

For...ever..? the Industry Tree that the dwarves must follow is that even if nothing else[1] needs it, beds can only be made by wood (inc. subterranean fungal trees[2]) and is a gameplay dependency, much as is anything requiring an anvil[3].

Yes, in (e.g.) Minecraft you can merely karate-chop your very first tier-1 materials (from which you can evolve all later tier-capable production methods fairly quickly) in the initially unarmed, unburdoned and (aside from cosmetic skin) 'unclothed' Survival Mode character, but DF requires you to at least accept the default Embark (or New Adventurer) equipment , if not consider it (and the nature of your initial destinatiin state and hopes of what you find there) and adjust to best suit your gut feelings and/or sense of adventure and challenge.

And one element is if/how you're going to implement wooden beds. A rock bed seems no real advantage over sleeping on the floor, and it seems bedding (mattress, if not coverlets and the like) is not relevent whether sat upon a bedstead/sleeping-platforrm or growing as potentially more restful vegetation from out of muddy ground.

(In my head, I consider it perhaps a near-universal ploy to annoy the Elves. All other creatures have sweeter dreams knowing that they are reclining on cruelly cut-down tree-torsos, and that is enough to substantiate a nicer rest than just curling up in the middle of a corridor/battlefield/temporarily-empty-magma-sump. But that's just me.)


[1] Well, almost nothing else.. there's axles, etc

[2] For those who run out of/waste/lose/destroy/otherwise-lose-access to the inital wagon-dissassembly material, while on a treeless/trees-inaccessible embark and need to defer (more) beds until cavern-breaching happens. And for that you need an axe, which to forge anew you need an anvil[3], if you didn't (successfully) have one brought to the site...

[3] For which, to forge anew you need an anvil[3], if you didn't (successfully) have one brought to the site...

From a visual POV, there's already much weirdness (conversion of log to planked flooring, which can be ripped up to form an axle, a windmill blade, stairs of various configurations, wagon-tracks, a bit of bridge, and back and forth between however many forms you wish, before commiting to be carved or otherwise constructed into cages or cups, bucklers or beds, hatch-covers or hives, which do not tend to look like they were bashed out of materials recycled from old constructiions. And there's no internal requirement to make or fit door handles, hinges, brackets, etc, where quute clearly most graphic-packs would visually suggest that such a process has happened.

For that reason, until any major revamp of "industrial logic", let the bed (created as wooden 'for Reasons') be represented as a recognisable bed despite the apparent (irreversible/unrecoverable and otherwise unexploitable) transmutation of a small amount of lignin to cotton, or whatever it might be assumed to be.


Well, that's my thoughts, such as they are. But they reign supreme only in my own head (if that!), so I have no objection if anyone thinks differently.

[Cruxador]

Straw beds from Gnomoria make a lot of sense on a certain level of fortress development. Or at least stone bunk beds. This reliance on wood for one of the very important needs is not dwarfy enough IMO.

Straw isn't an item in the game, is it? At least, it's not a material we really do stuff with in dwarf mode. So I'd assume that the wooden beds have straw mattresses, and if the dwarves sleep on the ground they make "beds" like a dog would by pulling some soft stuff together, whether that's straw or a balled up cloak or whatever's to hand.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Straw beds from Gnomoria make a lot of sense on a certain level of fortress development. Or at least stone bunk beds. This reliance on wood for one of the very important needs is not dwarfy enough IMO.

Straw isn't an item in the game, is it? At least, it's not a material we really do stuff with in dwarf mode. So I'd assume that the wooden beds have straw mattresses, and if the dwarves sleep on the ground they make "beds" like a dog would by pulling some soft stuff together, whether that's straw or a balled up cloak or whatever's to hand.

And what is "dwarfy" anyway? Raising llamas and crying over the soul of a poor, dead goblin before heading off to the tavern to enjoy some fine elven poetry? Seems perfectly reasonable that these guys build their bed frames from wood.

[PatrikLundell]

Straw beds from Gnomoria make a lot of sense on a certain level of fortress development. Or at least stone bunk beds. This reliance on wood for one of the very important needs is not dwarfy enough IMO.

Straw isn't an item in the game, is it? At least, it's not a material we really do stuff with in dwarf mode. So I'd assume that the wooden beds have straw mattresses, and if the dwarves sleep on the ground they make "beds" like a dog would by pulling some soft stuff together, whether that's straw or a balled up cloak or whatever's to hand.

And what is "dwarfy" anyway? Raising llamas and crying over the soul of a poor, dead goblin before heading off to the tavern to enjoy some fine elven poetry? Seems perfectly reasonable that these guys build their bed frames from wood.

And from a game perspective, adding the challenge to get wood for something to discourage complete turtling is usually not a bad thing (although it has nothing to do with the purpose of this thread, of course).

[Iä! RIAKTOR!]

Some weapons looks unrealistic. Jewels looks very strange. Not all creatures fit ingame proportions.

[PatrikLundell]

Some weapons looks unrealistic. Jewels looks very strange. Not all creatures fit ingame proportions.

Creature size has been discussed several times in this thread. The artist are constrained by a 32*32 pixel limit (with a few pixels of oversize available for the very largest ones), and the smallest ones must still be recognizable, so there is not room for making them follow a strict size hierarchy, in particular if you also want to make them distinct (you could probably achieve a hierarchy if everything was just blobs, and size was measured in number of pixels each blob consisted of). That means that yes, some creatures may be too large compared to some others while also too small compared to others. The aim, as far as I understand it, is to roughly group creatures into small/medium/large/extra large.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Some weapons looks unrealistic. Jewels looks very strange. Not all creatures fit ingame proportions.

Yes. That's how tilesets work. They show you what something is with a graphical icon. Have you played Dwarf Fortress? It involves being able to clearly see where items are, which you wouldn't be able to do if everything was life size. Would be a bit of a blow to Steam sales if the artists inexplicably tried to make life-size models of everything.

[JesterHell696]

Straw beds from Gnomoria make a lot of sense on a certain level of fortress development. Or at least stone bunk beds. This reliance on wood for one of the very important needs is not dwarfy enough IMO.

Straw isn't an item in the game, is it? At least, it's not a material we really do stuff with in dwarf mode. So I'd assume that the wooden beds have straw mattresses, and if the dwarves sleep on the ground they make "beds" like a dog would by pulling some soft stuff together, whether that's straw or a balled up cloak or whatever's to hand.

And what is "dwarfy" anyway? Raising llamas and crying over the soul of a poor, dead goblin before heading off to the tavern to enjoy some fine elven poetry? Seems perfectly reasonable that these guys build their bed frames from wood.

And from a game perspective, adding the challenge to get wood for something to discourage complete turtling is usually not a bad thing (although it has nothing to do with the purpose of this thread, of course).

Which is a point against it IMHO, I love DF because it is a fantasy world simulator not a arcade game which you "win", having a mechanic work in a specific way just for challenge gets a hell no from me.

Some weapons looks unrealistic. Jewels looks very strange. Not all creatures fit ingame proportions.

Yes. That's how tilesets work. They show you what something is with a graphical icon. Have you played Dwarf Fortress? It involves being able to clearly see where items are, which you wouldn't be able to do if everything was life size. Would be a bit of a blow to Steam sales if the artists inexplicably tried to make life-size models of everything.

Life size might be doable with multi-tile creature and a 4k tileset, I don't think that's going to happen, whould be awesome tho.

[Starver]

Which is a point against it IMHO, I love DF because it is a fantasy world simulator not a arcade game which you "win", having a mechanic work in a specific way just for challenge gets a hell no from me.

Going back to my prior argument, in which I went into Minecraft-equivalence, if you play that in Survival Mode, and create a massive obsidian castle on a whim, perhaps carefully bucketting up magma from the depths (after having made a baker's dozen of buckets, a dozen for magma, one for your quenching water, with sand for casting 'moulds' or just rapidly double-pour) and casting it in place, having is that not better for the soul than using the 'Creative' mode to just have unlimited obsidian blocks in your inventory and plop-plop-plop them down (and insta-smash any misplacements along the way) while effortlessly flying and having no dangers from mobs?

If you would prefer the latter, consider DFHacking your every need into being (and every obstacle out of it). Nothing stops you doing that. I think you could fully form your entire fortress in the initial post-embark pause, fully fledged before any minor has tried to grab the pick from the wagon.


And you can't 'win' DF any easier (if at all) that way. You win if you think you have, and if you are happy to win at a one-person game of Monopoly by taking money from the Bank whenever you feel like it, then that's you.



I think you misunderstand the graphics, issues too, but as this thread is about graphics and their possible tweaks (with perhaps a back-channel to Toady if it seems like the game-engine needs further revamping) I'll leave you with your opinion, even if I think you're on the wrong track.

[Iä! RIAKTOR!]

Some weapons looks unrealistic. Jewels looks very strange. Not all creatures fit ingame proportions.

Yes. That's how tilesets work. They show you what something is with a graphical icon. Have you played Dwarf Fortress? It involves being able to clearly see where items are, which you wouldn't be able to do if everything was life size. Would be a bit of a blow to Steam sales if the artists inexplicably tried to make life-size models of everything.

The more issue is design of unrealistic-drawn weapons and too strange jewels. I play DF only with ASCII standard, didn't even change a font.

[evthestrike]

Some weapons looks unrealistic. Jewels looks very strange. Not all creatures fit ingame proportions.

Yes. That's how tilesets work. They show you what something is with a graphical icon. Have you played Dwarf Fortress? It involves being able to clearly see where items are, which you wouldn't be able to do if everything was life size. Would be a bit of a blow to Steam sales if the artists inexplicably tried to make life-size models of everything.

The more issue is design of unrealistic-drawn weapons and too strange jewels. I play DF only with ASCII standard, didn't even change a font.

Which weapons are unrealistic? Do you have any ideas about how to change them? What looks unrealistic about the jewels to you? I don't think your feedback is specific enough to be useful.