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[Egan_BW]

Traditionally divine magic is better for healing than arcane magic. This makes sense to me, because arcane magic is totally under the control of the caster, so they would need to know anatomy in order to magically repair a bounty. Divine magic is under the control of the deity, and the cleric is merely channeling that power, so the mage doesn't need to do all the work themselves.
What I'm saying is that Moskurg style magic is better for healing both logically and thematically than Arstotzkan magic. We have access to both styles, so if we want healing mages, they should be Moskurgian.

[Madman198237]

Yes, "traditionally" that's how it works. Luckily for us, sanity, and balance, that's not how it works in a game such as this. Both sides, regardless of flavor, have the SAME capabilities and the SAME chance to get good healing magic.

[Tyrant Leviathan]

Yeah in reality it is the dice that says which is better. Not narrative.

That’s Arms Race baby!!!!

[Egan_BW]

Ugh, don't remind me how shit this system is.

[Madman198237]

Ugh, don't remind me how shit this system is.

You are confusing "bad" with "balanced". This system is balanced, thus it does not take into account fluff differences so much as a narrative-based game is. Such is life, I am afraid. If you don't like it, um, well, uh...don't play, I guess?

There can't be a built-in bias like what you appear to want or the game is inherently unfair, and thus no longer a competition, it's just a slow road to inevitable defeat for the side that was disadvantaged from the start.

[Rockeater]

If we go with devouring fire, depends on exact description we can go with digging blow the enemy.

[Egan_BW]

It's not like Arms Race is a perfectly balanced and mechanical game. Almost everything that matters is in fact narratively driven. Any game that needs a GM cannot be perfectly balanced and without bias, because making soft decisions is pretty much the GM's whole job. A game like this would be enriched if things that make more sense have more chance to work, rather than everything relying on the same die roll. It takes us farther away from being weapons scientists and closer to being cheerleaders for our side, with victory ultimately being a 50/50 coin flip.

[Madman198237]

I'm considering a writeup for a magical fire capable of burning literally anything, including magic itself. No, I am NOT jumping in a tunnel with that stuff, if that's what you're suggesting.

Egan: Yes, but what the GM does is NOT narrative and fluff, but instead practical design analysis. If your design makes more sense, then it will be more successful than the enemy's even if they got the same die roll. HOWEVER, simply adding in a fluff detail like "oh we're calling on our god to do it" CANNOT give you a buff, because that's inherently biased against anyone who doesn't want to go the religious route. It might give you a buff because you've used similar logic in the past....but then the enemy's method must do the same thing and we're still at a wash as to which method is "superior" for healing magic.

[Egan_BW]

And you'll be at a disadvantage in ship building if you choose not to go the "steel" route. That doesn't make it unbalanced. In war and magic, religion can be a practical consideration; it's not just flavor. At this point both us and the vaulters have equal opportunity to use religion. And there's nothing wrong with asymmetrical sides anyway.

[Madman198237]

I suppose if the GM wanted to he COULD do any of those things---make religion versus math matter and make the sides asymmetric....but it's a horrible plan that should only be done carefully, and NOT when the sides are supposed to be equal like they are in Wands Race. It's our choices that should make them different, nothing predetermined.

Also, the Vaulters do not in fact have access to our religion since they left before integration started.

[Rockeater]

I didn't mean we go with the fire, we go behind it.

[Madman198237]

Still requires the deployment of a terribly powerful incendiary in confined spaces.

No thank you.




EDIT to help the GM:

Spoiler: Moskurg final turn revisions and design (click to show/hide)

Shortwave Teletalk
It uses a heavily modified wand attached to a small metal box, which can be strapped to a mages back without appreciably affecting their performance on the battlefield.  The wand acts as what our Researcher-Priests refer to as an "antenna", which can both attune to the users thoughts and communicate with another similarly-equipped mage several hundred miles away!  The device can communicate with multiple mages at once (assuming they're in range) by using "channels", which can be adjusted by a small slider on the box.  We've taken the liberty of setting up a couple relay-stations between the frontlines and the capitol, in order to better facilitate communications among leadership.  Mages must still relay what they've heard on the teletalk verbally for non-magical individuals, but the ability to talk to individuals hundreds of miles away will be invaluable despite these delays.

Mind Sense
Conscious minds have unique "Markers", which can make them recognizable to the casual mind-reader. They are ultimately unique from individual to individual, but many have similarities; for example, infantrymen tend to have similar mental markers from training, different from farmers, or educators or commanders or wives or children.  These distinctions are even different between Arstotzkan and Moskurger.  By using mind reading, an apprentice can locate where another mind is relative to himself.  Typically a mage can only find the angle of another mind in relation to himself, but if in communication with another mind reader (through teletalk wands) they can triangulate the target.  A third mind reader even allows them to determine the elevation and location with greater precision, and easily differentiate between friend and foe.

Lightning Rifle
Initially, the Lightning Rifle was designed as a simple wooden handle with a trigger that connects the circuit on a modified Wand of Thunderbolts, allowing a discharge of electric potential.  This proved disastrous, as a mundane user has no way of controlling the output of the now-uncontained lightning.  Further modifications to the design saw the addition of a long, adamantium spike to help direct the flow away from the user, as well as a wooden stock to help brace the contraption against the users shoulder.  The stock continued around the slotting mechanism to hold the Wand, and then further to the forestock to provide a handhold for the user and insulate them from the adamantium spike as it grew hot through repeated discharges.

Wands of Thunderbolts are quite long, at about 10".  They must be carried in a special leather satchel to protect them from the elements and prevent accidental discharges, and a new one must be slotted in to replace the previous wand between firings.  An open bolt holds the wand in place, and must be unlocked and slotted back for reloadings.  An experienced rifleman can fire six times a minute and carries with him 20 spare Wands of Thunderbolt.

The Lightning Rifle is largely mundane in nature, with the most magical aspects being the components that store the lightning and some dubious hymns engraved on the adamantium spike praying for accuracy.  As such, the lightning blast tends to be accurate out to only Short Range, and invariably goes to ground before going beyond Long Range.  By necessity, the modified Wands of Thunderbolt have slightly less power and result in a more humble explosion upon striking their target.  Initial tests suggest it could penetrate lightly armored crystal, but won't crack anything beyond a breastplate.  The Lightning Rifles are simple to make and use no expensive parts, making it possible to distribute one to every footsoldier in the army. Normal Cost.

Spoiler: Moskurger Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)

Sabre:  Officer weapon.  A single-edged Adamantium blade that favours cavalry combat over infantry combat.  Requires training to wield, one-handed.  Expensive.
Spear:  General infantry weapon.  Essentially an Adamantium dagger on a long stick.  Very cheap, requires minimal training to use.  Can be used double-handed, or single handed with a light shield.  Cheap. Obsolete.
    Halberd: An axe, a hook, and a spear all rolled into one.  Does well against armor and in formation. Cheap
Buckler:  General infantry equipment.  A small Adamantium shield, held in one hand.  Only protects a small area, but can be wielded alongside a shield.  Moderate cost, requires training to wield properly. Cheap.
Pavise Shield: A large, thick, high-quality shield to guard against arrows.  Can be staked into the ground, or slung across the shoulders.  Needs both hands to use while on the move. Very Expensive.
Padded Armour:  General infantry armour.  Very cheap, just layers of cloth, but doesn't protect against much.  Well ventilated in hot conditions, though. Worn under armor.  Cheap.
    Scale Mail:  Officer armour.  Scales of Adamantium on a leather backing.  Expensive, but lighter than chain mail.  Expensive. Obsolete.
    Elite Lamellar Armor:  All-purpose armor.  Worn over padded armor.  Thin plates of Adamantium sewn together with leather thongs, backed by more leather.  High quality, decent protection against arrows and melee attacks.  Adamantium is tailored to the temperature of the theater being fought in, preventing soldiers from freezing to death. Cheap.
Recurve Bow:  General infantry weapon.  A light bow composed of laminated wood and horn, curved backwards to provide more force.  Inexpensive enough to equip many troops with, with very reasonable medium range and power.  Can be wielded by horse archers.
    Bodkin Arrows: Arrows with needle points.  Can reliably penetrate plate armor at point blank range.  Can penetrate less reliably further away.  Now with Adamantium tips!
Arabian Horse:  A light riding horse, from short-lived Iberian settlers in the past.  Very fast and maneuverable, but not too strong.  Expensive.
Horse Breeding Program:  Mass amounts of horses available.  Tend to do poorly in the desert, and aren't quite as high quality as the Arabian Horses. Cheap.
Lances:  Essentially a heavily upgraded spear.  Has a tendency to splinter after the first use.  Cheap.
Sailing Ship:  Wind-propelled wooden ship.  Fast, requires minimal crew, cannot carry many passengers, but does carry at least one wizard - so long as they don't make puns.  Very Expensive. Obsolete.
    Sirocco:  Ships made from lightweight and hardy junglewood and clad in glowing Adamanitium armor.  Much more resilient and faster than Arstotzka's ships as of 935.
Ballista: Large siege weapon. Can fire javelins or stone shot great distances accurately.  Reliable enough for consistent use.  Can be mounted on ships.  Wheeled. High-quality siege engineers.Expensive.
    Firestorm ammo: Pots filled with Alwathnayu Mukafa'a - "Heathen's Reward".  Explodes into sticky flame on impact.  Incredibly lethal, incredibly dangerous.  Nearly impossible to extinguish.  Cheap.
    Heathen's Reward: Alwathnayu Mukafa'a, a variant of Alnnar Almugaddasa.  More reactive to open flame, tends to expand rapidly.
    Fire and Thunder:  Even more explosive Alnnar.  Less flames, more boom.  Can be put in an iron shell to cast fragments at enemies, although the fuse can be finicky. 
Thundergun:  Large siege weapon.  Can fire rounded iron cannon balls through an Adamantium tube.  Uses a series of copper coils to accelerate the ammo.  Requires a 36-wand battery for each firing event, and uses a set of vacuum tubes to time the coils.  Accurate out to Beyond Line of Sight.  Expensive.

Spoiler: Moskurger Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)

The Pheonix: A giant tank of Alnnar, propelled into the air by dozens of Adamantium War Pegasi Scrolls.  Requires multiple wizards to keep running.  Armor is thick enough to withstand 14 mm's up to Medium Range.  Features a turret on the bottom to spray the Alnnar on the poor fools below.  Slow, highly explosive, but absolutely terrifying.  Very Expensive.
  Phoenix Transport:  A Phoenix, with the Alnnar, turret, and defenses removed.  Used to transport troops, ammo, and other supplies to the front lines.  Expensive.
Wand of Heroism:  Makes a squad fight beyond human levels.  A National Effort.
Moskurg's Apprentice Gramary for Inter-magical Competency:  Trains some apprentices to Wizard-level.  Does not provide more mages.  National Effort.
Alsamma Safina:  Sirocco, stripped-down and packed with War Pegasi for lift.  Requires multiple dedicated mages to keep the carpets enchanted and in sync.  Very Expensive. Obsolete.
Skyhawk:  An Adamantium airship, with two ballistas and four jet engine clusters for lift and movement.  Very Expensive.
Adamantium:  Divine metal summoned from the aether.  Comes in workable copper-soft and forge-able steel-hard ingots.  Temperature can be permanently set.  Cheap.
Teletalk:  Short-ranged psychic communication between mystics.  Enough beacons can be produced to outfit an army.  Expensive.
Wand of Thunderbolts:  Glass wand, painted with zinc and copper.  Adamantium core.  Good for a single modestly-powerful blast of lightning, which explodes.  Good out to Medium range. Cheap.
Staff of Tubikh Rrahim Albarq: Area-of-affect spell.  Prevents all magic from being cast within field of effect out to Long Range.  Spell contained within a staff of ivory, field of effect controllable.  Produces a glow. Expensive.
   Dispell Enchantments:  Dispells enchantments on items, including standard crystal weapons. Expensive.
Pegasus:  Charmingly named, enchanted carpets.  Levitate, can be pushed around with Gust of Wind.  Limited height, duration, speed.  Typically rolled up and equipped with a saddle.  Has pretty tassels.  Expensive.
   War Pegasus:  An even faster, higher, tamed version of the Pegasus.  Requires each scroll to be broken-in before it can be used in the field, but now has its own form of locomotion.  Enchantments now last longer.  Made of Adamantium.  Cheap. Obsolete.
   Adamantium Jets:  A rudimentary jet engine, made of concentric Adamantium tubes.  High thrust.  Cheap.
Skyskiff:  A two-seater Adamantium canoe.  Equipped with two Adamantium jets.  Very fast, thick armor.  Cheap.

Spoiler: Moskurger Spells (click to show/hide)

Detect Ambush:  Reveals non-magical ambushes prepared by enemy troops or physical traps.
Lucky Strike:  Magical guidance makes a squad shoot or strike true far more often than usual.  Expensive.
Detect Thoughts:  Read the mind of an enemy commander to determine their tactics ahead of time.  Expensive.
  Zen Inception:  By putting enemy soldiers in a zen-like state, we can use their minds as a relay system to read minds further away.  The spell is easy to disrupt, but simple to use.
Gust of Wind:  Evokes physical force to create a heavy gust of wind, sufficient to disperse fog and most minor concealment, as well as disperse irritating swarms.  Expensive.
Cyclone Shield:  Protects the beneficent from most arrows and some blows with a sheath of wind.  Expensive.
Storm Strike:  Summons heavy rain and winds over the course of a day.  Expensive.
  Wrath of Allah:  Calls upon Allah to allow lightning to rain down, even in snowy weather.  Multiple mages allow faster casting of Storm Strike.
  Clear Weather:  Negates inclement weather within the given area.  Nests within Storm Strike for protection.
  Hammer of Allah:  Induce lightning from summoned storms.  Strikes indiscriminately, so can't be used in "danger close" situations.  Lighting explodes on strike.
  Spear of Allah:  Call down an individual bolt of lightning to target enemy commanders.  Requires line of sight to target.  Can be used in "danger close" situations.  Lighting explodes on strike.
  Zephyr of Allah - Zephyric Destruction:  Tornado cast by a single mage.  Very powerful, goes out to Extreme Range.  Lethal with debris, less lethal otherwise.  Can pick up a soldier, if it passes directly over him. Expensive.
  Heretics' Downfall:  Greater control over lightning.  Can 'persuade' lightning to travel down certain paths despite easier paths being available.
  Winds of Ruin:  A variant of Storm Strike.  Allows the casters to lend their intent to the storm, allowing it to blunt the range of enemy artillery and cast weather attack spells beyond line of sight. Very Expensive.
Tubikh Rrahim: Area-of-affect spell centered around the caster.  Prevents all magic from being cast within a short range. Cheap.
   Dispell Enchantments:  Dispells enchantments on items, including standard crystal weapons. Expensive.
Divine Desert Winds: Sends warm desert air north.  Does not reach the taiga. Warms the area by one "level". Very Expensive.
Antichronic Reverbramancy: A trance that focuses on the branching nature of time.  Locates "chokepoints" in the branches, where things will happen.  Can only detect cataclysmic, nearby events, like artillery barrages, usually within 10-30 seconds.  Tends to cause mages to be lost in the flow of time.  Cheap.

[Tyrant Leviathan]

Holy shit no wonder those guys won. Flying tech. Do we have the red guys stuff too? Fire ball is always useful.

[Madman198237]

In fact we won because eS was tired of the game AND because we weren't so abysmally stupid as to build a high-altitude bomber for urban warfare.

We were plenty stupid in other ways, just not quite THAT abysmally stupid. Yes we do have Arstotzkan tech, no word yet on how much we have, though.

[Jilladilla]

In fact we won because eS was tired of the game AND because we weren't so abysmally stupid as to build a high-altitude bomber for urban warfare.

Pretty much that; Arstotzka had a fairly good air force of their own; able to compete with Moskurg despite Moskurg's perpetual finely controlled storm.

It's just that they literally made a high-altitude bomber on the last turn when they were defending their capital. It was a fairly good bomber, granted (it could manufacture its bombs mid-flight and was only a few steps away from becoming a spaceship); but it was a really bad call given where they were going to fight.