Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[webadict]

Tomasque: is webadict going to do enough work for us to read him during day 1?

Just like with hector13, the way he's acting makes it hard to say whether he's scum or town...

...is what I would say if this hadn't happened:

hi

roseheart. Because it's the easy thing to do, but also because it's hypocritical for me not to attempt to force others to play better than the way I'm currently playing.

webadict: I thought you said you didn't care that you were being voted, and that you weren't even playing seriously, but now that you've recently gotten a lot of votes, you've latched onto an early bandwagon (nirur's vote and hector's threat) the moment you saw one ready to form. If you're trying to stop lazy behavior as you say you are, then why haven't you punished it before? All you've done is vote hector once - then done nothing with it - and for all your posturing you haven't criticize a specific person's behavior at all.

So the answer to your question, dolores, is that if I can get blood from this stone, far better scum-hunters than me should be able to get a good read on him by the end of today.

If I were a less caring man with a bigger grudge, I would've posted "lolwut" and then proceeded to never address that point ever again. But you see, I can't let that blasphemy go. Because of all men, my pettiness is without equal.

But, uh, what? Could you perhaps rephrase that attack into an interpretive dance? I'm sure it would involve bending backwards at impossible angles.

I could do the all at once post, where I point out the sheer incompetence of saying I haven't pointed out anyone's behavior when I'm voting roseheart for their behavior.

I could do the delayed attack, where I set up the reveal of the chat I was invited to by you and make vague and accusatory statements that might seem cult-like.

I could do the redirect, and ask for citations on almost any sentence you've said.

Or, and again, I'm still not really sure which deity I am currently the champion of to allow me to do this, I could per uxkhgidiyigsigzitsuFhFhf g ig kkkgzg i ohox tzisgis . That was me finger tapdancing on my phone keyboard.

To be fair, I did early bandwagon hector13. Thought it would be funnier to vote him than KitBeauRogard. Then it stopped being funny because this game is too real man. It's too real! I can't get in the way of dolores doing their thing. But don't tell them I said that our I'll get at earful. Oh look,  I can tell their reading it right now, thinking,  "You think you could stand in my way?  Fuuuuuuuuck yooooooou" plus something about rusty lead pipes. You don't even know how tempting those poop emojis look right now.

Anyway, I kinda forgot what my point was because I have been sitting in bed for two hours mentally preparing to go to work at 8, so I'm gonna just post this stream of consciousness with it and hope my phone didnt autocorrect too many things

[dolores]

I'm writing an actual post but I'll drop this while you're still around cos I'm sure you thought the same thing:

Dolores: You promised a more coherent version of this post. You may proceed.

That's not what I promised but I'll put it at the bottom of this anyway. Most of it has to do with shit like:

Webadict: Keep doing what you're doing. I have no idea how, but it's working.

It's not, and the only reason I'm not going to tell you not to encourage him is that I'm pretty sure it pisses him off more than it does me.
He's not doing anything except now voting for a literal non-player. As much as it's feels like a bad idea to admit this, he isn't literally the most useless player here since he is actually voting for someone, which is unironically better than some people. He hasn't done anything else. I can hold out faith that he might do something later or whatever, I don't give a fuck, but he's not finding scum. He might contend that there's no way to find scum with a cunt like roseheart posting literally two characters, but be that as it may he is not, infact, finding scum.

[dolores]

Incidentally, the only promise that I'd made and haven't lived up to yet is telling you whether or not Nirur is town.
They're relatively active or at least they were so I expect I'll be able to do that by D2 without needing to deep-dive shit.
Without a doubt they're someone I'd prefer was alive at the start of D2, anyway. If they're scum it should be obvious by then.

Incidentally, why haven't you interacted with me in a way other than asking after me? Perhaps a sudden armour-piercing question that just couldn't wait could have roused me from my busyness.

I mean, you're not wrong.
That said, you didn't really have enough content for me to ask anything armor-piercing from. My personally preferred method to lynch lurkers is to just let them sit for a while so they've lurked long enough to look bad. Asking them questions helps them generate the appearance of activity without actually contributing to the thread, like I've accused FoU of doing.

Is this a smokescreen or what? Except for the...interesting...ordering of this list, there's little useful information on it. Well, except for the Day 1 claim. Why are you claiming? I don't see any benefit from it whatsoever at this point of the game.

I write out reads lists a lot for a number of good reasons, including the fact that I tend to ask for them and especially because they help me stay organized. They're also, in my opinion, the ideal method of putting pressure on lurking players; they don't provide a good opportunity to respond to make yourself look good but they can be used to maintain the appearance of an expectation of better play or at least a record of their scummy inactivity.
You're right that that list isn't very helpful or important, and that's a consequence of me using a format illsuited to that point in the game in a poorly thought out way.
It's up to you to decide whether or not I'm claiming. It's well within my meta to have done so and especially to set up a D2 fullclaim, which I am wont to do. On the other hand, there's a strong degree of wifom to telling webadict I'm going to action him tonight. I'm pretty sure he'll take me at my word because the things I'll say I'd do if I have a certain role are the things I would do with that role so far as I've thought it out. Of course, this was right in my first post and hardly indicative of the flow of the game.
Why have I written so much here?

Have you been paying attention to wuba and Hector? I wouldn't exactly call their play "straightlaced".

I would.
Well, not webadict, but again, he still isn't really playing. He seems like he might in the future now because the tuxedo-like texture of his overcoat is compelling him to help a struggling doll in need.
Anyway, the point is that the only thing Hector's really missing is the conversion from RVS into actual gameplay. A lot of people have made that and he hasn't yet. What he did was a textbook RVS play, and he hasn't really done much since then. His next 1-2 posts will determine if he's actually town or not, at least as far as we're likely to see out of D1. At this point he really hasn't done super much in terms of proper analysis but during the time he was here there wasn't too much to analyse (it was RVS).

Wouldn't a question from your part be a fine way to start that engagement?

Yes and no.
You're right that it'd be the right thing to do to try and get any sort of read on Kit more quickly. However, I'm very happy with lynching Kit and, much more to the point, it'll be extremely easy. I'm 95% confident that as soon as I turn up the heat on Kit they'll go on the defensive and stop posting about anything other than their self until they get lynched, and I'd rather have some content on other players as well if I'm going to go down that path.
Additionally, in terms of straight pressure, I'm chasing failbird so I can't vote Kit. The thing is that the wifom surrounding Kit is a lot thicker which makes me more interested in a flip, so if I do vote for Kit I'm probably not changing my vote for the rest of the day and it's too early to commit to that.

Why is not looking like scum a concern to you?

Because I'm town?
I am clear. Not to anybody else, sure, who gives a fuck. Well actually, everybody else does, at least everybody else on the town. Mechanically, the worst outcome of D1 is that I get lynched, because I'm clear town and everyone else has a 4/9 or w/e chance of being a mafscum or an sk or whatever the fuck they are.
It's true that almost all of the work that I need to do today is to figure out who to lynch and then to make that happen. The one thing that I know from the start and before I even started the game was that the person I didn't want to lynch was myself.
I remember when I started writing this there were things I wanted to say about hector and nirur but I guess I'll have to re-read before I get to that cos I've forgotten what it was. Expect that in a few hours I guess

[dolores]

Hector
So I've read through and haven't seen him interact with anyone other than Nirur and Kit.
I appreciate that yes, he is voting webadict, but webadict is neither a person nor is that a useful vote.
The ball is in your court and I'll let you take the initiative, so post whatever you want, but I'm expecting that you must have a nice list of reads or at least some direction as to who you want to lynch, seeing as you haven't done anything past RVS and during it you only really baited Nirur into giving you a weak attack to deflect.
Nirur
Kind-of in the same boat as Hector, except they were the one actually leading an attack on someone they were voting for. The only person in this thread so far to make a case on someone for actually being scummy as opposed to useless, even if the case was based on principles I don't agree with.
Did a lot of work in almost skipping RVS, but hasn't so far managed to convert it into something else.
Some questions:
What's your read on IcyTea?
Out of roseheart, failbird and Kit, does anyone actually look scummy or do you just think that they're too inactive to tell?
To my mind Toma's case on Kit is absolutely terrible. The worst part is that it's understandable to want to vote for kit but he's twisted reasons to try to make kit look like scum? The only reason I don't find this incredibly suspicious is I absolutely cannot follow whatever convoluted bullshit is right above it with webadict. The only reason I'm not following up on this is because I don't mind using a shitty scum-case to ride on someone who I think I might want lynched. Are you seeing what I'm seeing with this?
This post
For reference, I wasn't that drunk, I had just been awake for a very long time. I'm not shakerag.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure webadict got what I was getting at when I was talking to him. I'm not sure if anybody else did, but the point is that you nerds need to stop acting like what wuba is/was doing is okay. We've got two people voting for him which is great and all and I guess the best you can do, so I suppose we can just lynch him. Again, it doesn't help that he's being part of the problem but he's also not the worst offender and he is voting roseheart now. There isn't really much I can do to make him post though since it's not like he gives a shit about getting voted out. Anyway, I was mostly angry because he was acting like it's not his fault that he's being a useless piece of shit. It's not his fault that twats are joining games and then not playing and draining all the energy out of the room, but it is his fault that he's

Anyway, here's some poop emojis.

💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩

The things he's complaining about are there though. Anyone who lets his shit go just because it's webadict is a guilty of it as he is.
Kit
Still hasn't done anything, at least they're voting now
I don't like why or how they decided to vote but it's better than literally nothing
It'd be great if they started to play the game, by which I mean try to find scum. I dunno if they think that I think that failbird is scum and voting with me is a good idea or what but they still haven't asked any questions or even talked about what they think-
Holy shit, did I never read this post?

Cut out for what, playing Forum Mafia or being Forum Mafia Scum? Don't worry this is my first forum game too. Since it feels bad to drop hector13 for some reason, I'm going to lock in Failbird105 and set down my brain and lurk silently so I stop aggravating people with my "uuuhhhh imma vote hi- want, no, them... Actually, that guy... No, never mind." I do that on ToS too. Like I said, never got out of Silver.

Yeah nah get the fuck out, turn around and get back in this room.
I want to see you posting. I want to see you changing your vote. If you've got a good reason to vote for someone vote for them. If you don't have a good reason to vote for someone, find somebody else to vote for. There are scum. You literally even know how many or something like that.
Ask people questions. Find out who is scum.
Here, answer these questions. If you have any difficulty, think of a way to ask other players questions to try and figure out a better answer.
Q1: you're voting for failbird. Are they scum? What makes you think that? Why are you voting for them?
Q2: you say you don't want to stop voting Hector. Is he scum? What makes you think that? Does failbird being scum make it more or less likely that hector is scum?
Q3: you're voting the same person as myself and uh, not FoU anymore I guess. Am I town? FoU changed their vote away from failbird. Do you agree with him the webadict is a better target for a lynch?
Fallacy
How the hell is webadict a better lynch target then failbird?
I agree that webadict is a useless cunt. However, you changed your vote after this:

Fine, you want me to vote, I'll vote
Nirur Torir

Honestly I'm beginning to wonder if I'm cut out for this.

I don't disagree with your premise that webadict should be lynched for active lurking. But why is what he's doing any worse than failbird, whose only contribution so far is a literal OMGUS?
Nirur
I really don't like how they're just kinda coasting along after going after hector and that's still true.
They made a real attempt even if it was just in following up with a policy lynch. They're sitting lazily on failbird the same as I am, except I'm shitting out these ugly walls of text and they're not. Make no mistake, there's no need to post like this. The problem is they've decided to go back to RVS

Roseheart: You have yet to appear. What are your plans for scumhunting?
Failbird: Who are your top two picks here for scum buddies and why?
Kit: If you were just going to say it day 1 anyway, why wait so long for that role information?

(And some players are still in RVS) without engaging with people with more content.
Nirur: Am I town? Why were you so instantly deferential when I disagreed with your case on hector?

[IcyTea31]

I don't give a fuck, but he's not finding scum.

No, but he and responses to him are giving me some interesting data for my own use. It's a stupid* gambit that I wouldn't (and probably couldn't) pull, but it's better than nothing.

*I'm not even going to call it "unorthodox" anymore.

Why is not looking like scum a concern to you?

Because I'm town?

Then can't you trust that you look like town just by being town, without having to think about it?

[KitRougard]

I kindly claim town, and I will happily reveal abilities if you all want! If it keeps me bloody un-lynched.

...and yeah, when I'm Scum, I tend to actually whip up reasons to shove people because I know who isn't Scum, and is therefore lynchable. As Town, I have no idea who's who, and keep opinions tamped down for fear that I'll be wrong.

Also, I can psychoanalyze myself for YEARS, but someone else's mind is too "normal to understand. My only original idea right now is... After reading IcyTea's analasys, I agree with his point on tomasque. Never mind that they're voting for me, it feels like they read through the thread, went "OOH, look how ransom and cryptic this guy is!" made a post about my loopiness, and voted.

[dolores]

No, but he and responses to him are giving me some interesting data for my own use.

I'll be staggered if you can develop this into anything, but okay.

Then can't you trust that you look like town just by being town, without having to think about it?

Isn't that what I'm doing?
Anyway, I can 'lie' better than I can tell the truth. I'm realer than real. Why do you think I should have separate games as scum and town? If I'm scum I'm going to play like I'm town so that there's no discrepancy to call me out on. That seems to be an accepted idea. What's wrong with me playing like scum now that I'm town? There's no reason for me not to obfuscate things in my favor. The problem with lying as town is that you don't know what is true, but I do know that I am town, so I can deceive people off of that. Similarly, I do know my role and can use my power(s), so I can make claims about it without having to back them up, because the town is better informed as to the reality in that regard: one player (myself) knows the truth whereas zero members of the scum team know my role.

I kindly claim town, and I will happily reveal abilities if you all want! If it keeps me bloody un-lynched.

I claim town. Woh! Look at all that confirmation!
Claiming town doesn't make it any less likely that you'll get lynched.

...and yeah, when I'm Scum, I tend to actually whip up reasons to shove people because I know who isn't Scum, and is therefore lynchable. As Town, I have no idea who's who, and keep opinions tamped down for fear that I'll be wrong.

Don't. Post something. Guess what? I asked you three questions:

Q1: you're voting for failbird. Are they scum? What makes you think that? Why are you voting for them?
Q2: you say you don't want to stop voting Hector. Is he scum? What makes you think that? Does failbird being scum make it more or less likely that hector is scum?
Q3: you're voting the same person as myself and uh, not FoU anymore I guess. Am I town? FoU changed their vote away from failbird. Do you agree with him the webadict is a better target for a lynch?

You've answered none of them.
That is why I want to vote for you.
You have raised more questions, but I'll let you catch up before we get onto that. That's not a good thing by the way, I'm saying you're doing things without any clear justification as to why.
Literally the only reason I'm not voting you right now is because failbird hasn't posted yet. If they ask even one person one question they'll be ahead of you in the game and I'll vote for you. I suggest you preemptively do some work so they've got more to catch up on. At the end of the day, if you're town, getting lynched means you're allowing a townie to be lynched. That's against your interest.

Also, I can psychoanalyze myself for YEARS, but someone else's mind is too "normal to understand.

Good for you, now do some work
Nobody cares whether or not you're a special snowflake, ask some questions and at least try to understand what someone elses motivations might be. Even just start by answering some damn questions

My only original idea right now is... After reading IcyTea's analasys, I agree with his point on tomasque. Never mind that they're voting for me, it feels like they read through the thread, went "OOH, look how ransom and cryptic this guy is!" made a post about my loopiness, and voted.

The problem here is that you haven't done any work of your own. There's not even a real explanation of what you're thinking, you just agree in some broad sense with something you claim someone else has shown. If you can understand IcyTea's reasoning and analysis in the case on toma, you can reason and analyse a poster on your own. Explain to me in your own words why toma is scum. What does this mean about the other two players you've stopped voting for. Are they no longer suspicious?

[dolores]

To elaborate quickly on a particular point:
Being wrong about something and explaining why you think that is infinitely superior in every way to not posting.
If you've got faulty reasoning, we can call you out on it and you might improve.
If you've got a point, it helps advance the game.
Even if you look like you're fabricating your reasons out of thin air, you can't be less helpful than by not posting.
The more you post and the more evidence you use to support your posts the clearer your alignment will be and the less likely you are to be lynched if you are town. Have some faith that experience players will be able to see that you are town if you post honestly and try to get something done.

[hector13]

Well the game started on a weekend (probably part of the reason why some folks aren’t posting as much) and Monday’s are generally busy days for me so...

I guess you can have a preliminary reads list in no particular order and maybe something better later.

Nirur - feeling scummy, but that’s mostly because of the poor case on me. This post seems to imply that my level of experience has cleared me in some capacity? Doesn’t want to interact with me anymore, probably worried I noticed how little he did on his own, maybe worried about making a slip with “buddies”.

FoU - scum-lean, but I am aware I always think that about him. Should be doing more, weekend start gives a little leeway in that respect.

Kit and failbird - anxious newer players. Kit has kept something from pre-game going, failbird is worried about coming across as a fool. We all did in our first few games, man.

roseheart - should be in the previous grouping, but posting “hi” after webadict’s “woe for the subforum” thing was infuriating.

Tomasque - town-lean - handful of posts I haven’t read into much, was busy, looks like he’s trying to get more solid reads on people. Pushes Nirur for talking nonsense about Tomasque’s playing experience, has a case on Kit which I can accept as reasonable at this point of the game.

dolores - probably town, with caveats. Making people think about what they’re doing, could probably do it without calling everyone some variety of female genitalia, but eh. Has also dropped a few “slips” and such for people to pick up on, hence the caveat. IcyTea picked up on some. Encouraging activity is a pretty easy thing to be doing, though.

webadict - has spent a great portion of the game lamenting the slow death of the subforum, so... webadict. I guess he’s paying attention?

IcyTea - town lean. Engaging with things, asking people things. Bemused why he thinks my refuge is not as good as webadict’s refuge. Reads list doesn’t quite gel with mine, can’t complain about that I guess.

Two lynch targets for me would be Nirur and roseheart. Nirur ‘cause of the scumminess, roseheart ‘cause of “hi”.

PPE: four post preceding this haven’t been read yet, and I should’ve started laundry 2 hours ago.

[hector13]

Also, Nirur, ‘cause I’m decisive and confident.

[KitRougard]

Alright, alright, I'm grumpy and pressured and ready to make people shut their traps. You want answers to questions? Take em, 100% real fresh outta my shell of a brain.

Q1: I was voting for Failbird because Nirur was, frankly. That's why I changed my vote to something more agreeable with my own ideas.

Q2: I never actually said I wanted to stop voting Hector. As before, that was a pile-on vote, because that's usually how you lynch in ToS - the Snowball Effect! In truth, he's the target for my big Ability tonight, and I'd rather not kill him and have it wasted since after Lynch, day's over.

Q3 I haven't analyzed anyone that much, but the only reason I'm thinking you're Town or at least Neutral is because of the fact that you're pressing everyone at the same time. I feel as though that means that you're comparing reactions, finding the ones that don't fit with their friends, fit with how you would, and calling them out.

And you know what, Tomasque? You have a point. I can't think for myself properly when I'm Town. I play the "Do we HAVE to lynch anyone?" game when I can't tell who's who. And once I get a read on someone's Scumminess through my strange logic, I will chase them to the moon and back. But I'm not an Investigator. I'm just a Protector. I know the numbers in the way of Town's win for one of my abilities, but there's a caviet - If I tell anyone directly, I die. And I'm on thin fucking ice with what I have posted, so I'm not going to say any more on the topic, lest I get thrown off a cliff into the Shadow Realm.

[IcyTea31]

Why do you think I should have separate games as scum and town? If I'm scum I'm going to play like I'm town so that there's no discrepancy to call me out on.

That's exactly my point. As town, you don't need to worry about looking like scum, ergo as scum you shouldn't be either. Yet in that post you said you did something specifically not to look like scum. Your actions don't quite match with your stated beliefs, which is interesting. Certainly not something I would lynch you over (it'd be a miracle to raise a wagon even if there were enough active players), but know that I've got an eye on you.

[dolores]

That's exactly my point. As town, you don't need to worry about looking like scum, ergo as scum you shouldn't be either. Yet in that post you said you did something specifically not to look like scum. Your actions don't quite match with your stated beliefs, which is interesting.

no no, see, it goes both ways. As town, I don't need to worry about looking like scum. Therefore as scum, I don't need to worry about looking like scum.
Conversely, I can do the opposite: As scum, there are things I can do to look more like town. For example, you're trying to pick me up on an intentional fake slip. As you say, you can't lynch me over it. But you can't help but go after me for it. And my posts have such an earnest style that you can't even draw a pattern of suspicious behavior. You've got a solitary point you'll never connect to a case against me. Everything you throw my way now is being lost to you in the future; if you ever try to lynch me after Day1 you either have to have sustained the case against me for the entire time or start from scratch. There's no way for you to justify using evidence in the future if you ever change your mind about me before then. The best part is that it's a very metagame dependent argument that I'm using, so half the players will follow on with it at a given time.
Now here's the part which people don't think about; this is an excellent method for finding town. Scum don't make use of that because they know who isn't in the mafia, and can generally assume that other players are town. But I can use this method as town. I can say, "oh, Hector and IcyTea think that I'm town, but they've got some things they want to ask me about". Then if you follow up on it, I can decide whether or not you're making a genuine case. Scum should want me lynched, but town should want an explanation. Conversely, if you don't follow up on it, and you do acknowledge that it's there, that's useful for me as well.

Regardless, this kind of metaplay discussion is fun for me but the actual point of origin is that I don't re-read my posts because I think it makes me come off as less genuine and thus less able to be read as town. I'm pretty sure that you're prepared to accept that I do believe that. You haven't followed up with your other criticisms, which to my eye seemed more substantial. Do you have any actual questions that you want to ask me? Because I do have a question for you.
What's your read on Webadict? You seem to think that whatever he's doing is "working", so I presume you think he's town? What exactly do you think that he's accomplishing? You never even asked him a question, so you must have a pretty strongly formed read.
Hey, hey KitRougard
I told you to ask some questions.
You, uh, answered my questions, let's call it that. It's certainly your best work to date. I'm sure you at least understand the idea behind why I asked you those. So ask someone else some questions. Hell, ask Tomasque some questions, you're the one voting for him.
Here's the thing; you're voting Tomasque. We need to lynch someone today, or at least we almost certainly should. If you think he's the best bet, you should be able to explain why, so that I also vote for Tomasque. Present some evidence, give reference to his post(s) (He still only has one post holy shit). Really push on him to be more active. Complain to everyone else about how inactive he is. Do something. Because if he's scum, you're losing the game by not getting us to vote for him. And really, it shouldn't be that hard to do, because again, he only has one post.

[KitRougard]

Know what? My reasoning is exactly that- He only has one post that points fingers. It's a common thing In ToS to surface long enough to shout "HEY GUYS GET THAT PERSON OVER THERE" and submerge as the town considers, then acts. Tom, if you want to seem less sketchy to me, be actually active. Otherwise all you said looks like a dollar bill on a fishing line, and we know where that shiny string leads. To Scum.

[dolores]

"Be active" is great and all but it's something he could actually do.
Who are you going to vote for when Tomasque posts if you don't want to vote for him anymore?
Why?
If you can't answer those questions, you should be putting in some work to find someone else to go after.
Besides, you know how many scum there are. Unless you've found that many people to lynch, you should be asking some questions.