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Space-Time

2 (14.3%)

Hammer Time

3 (21.4%)

Time...to die.

6 (42.9%)

Peanut Butter Jelly Time

3 (21.4%)

Total Members Voted: 14

[Parsely]

Revisions
SGG-12 (2): Jilladilla, Maximum Spin
SMG-12a (3): Taricus, Twinwolf, Parsely
The SMG-13 (1): Yami
ArC-13c (1): Yami
Caelium Sleds (4): Taricus, Twinwolf, Maximum Spin, Parsely

Designs
VTR-12 "Ceramah" Radio (3): NUKE9.13, Twinwolf, Parsely
Self Propelled Artillery (1): Yami

[Yami]

Whelp, it seems folk are fairly set on the sled, which, whilst not as mobile as the self propelled artillery, does kinda get the job done.  Therefore, I have developed a whole new design!  It's pretty ambitious. I call it, The Cold Gun.

Esteemed colleagues, ever since we developed the Gavrilium Engine, we've had to use special safety measures to dispose of Depleted Gavrilium rods.  It's high time we make this problem someone else's and weaponize Depleted Gavrilium.  I propose that we crush some rods and throw the ensuing frigid dust at the enemy.  Now, whilst an aerosol dispersal might not be the safest method, or have much reach, I figure we could mix it up with some oil, which instead of freeing just gets more viscous as it cools allowing us greater reach and control.  We could then use a canister of some highly pressurized yet inert gas along side a canister of our mixture to force the Depleted Gavrilium into a spray.  It is my most fervent hope that the resultant spray could then be lit on fire.  I wonder if it would burn blue...  Would it burn cold, or even burn at all?!  Colleagues!  We must do science and answer these pressing questions!

The Cold Gun: is designed after our own SMG 12 for ease of introduction to the infantry, just, with a handle to the side rather'n a crank and two small canisters rather'n a magazine box.  Also, you know, a solid hose in place of the gun barrel.

Revisions
SGG-12 (2): Jilladilla, Maximum Spin
SMG-12a (3): Taricus, Twinwolf, Parsely
The SMG-13 (1): Yami
ArC-13c (1): Yami
Caelium Sleds (4): Taricus, Twinwolf, Maximum Spin, Parsely

Designs
VTR-12 "Ceramah" Radio (3): NUKE9.13, Twinwolf, Parsely
Self Propelled Artillery (0):
The Cold Gun (1): Yami

[Taricus]

Revisions
SGG-12 (2): Jilladilla, Maximum Spin
SMG-12a (3): Taricus, Twinwolf, Parsely
The SMG-13 (1): Yami
ArC-13c (1): Yami
Caelium Sleds (4): Taricus, Twinwolf, Maximum Spin, Parsely

Designs
VTR-12 "Ceramah" Radio (4): NUKE9.13, Twinwolf, Parsely, Taricus
Self Propelled Artillery (0):
The Cold Gun (1): Yami

[Madman198237]

So how about this for CQB:
We dedicate a design to a heavily-armored (as slow as/slower than an armored man) power suit and a SWORD, and go medieval when faced with enemies in CQB? I'm not even really kidding, with Myomers and Caelium and Gavrillium we could make a solid crack at it. One more special resource, possibly, to produce a super-alloy of steel or something like that, and we could have a solid basis for the "really heavily armored behemoths" feeling that nobody has yet done in an Arms Race

[Twinwolf]

To be perfectly honest if we could get that all lined up right I'd go for it. The Mountain suit is a good start.

[Jilladilla]

So.. Shouted out my concerns on the Discord about the SMG/SGG debate. Really, came down to this: They're both likely to be really damn hard.

The SMG-12 was originally Theoretical; at least partly because we didn't have anything other than Bolt-Action and a Gatling Gun. SMG's are also a decent bit ahead of time. This hasn't changed. I'd expect that the SMG-12a would either hit with Very Hard (-2 to rolls) or Theoretical (-3 to rolls!) as well, due to trying to get that fully automatic open bolt action with a revision, when once again we have literally 0 experience with the things.

The SGG-12, on the other hand, calls for a quite frankly massive miniaturization of our current models of Gavrilium engines. Our current smallest engine is the one utilized in the Lifting Suit, weighing in at 10kg, and way too big to feasibly mount on an SMG style gun. I don't have a good guesstimate for difficulty, though I wouldn't be surprised to see a Very Hard here as well. It's just a really big step on miniaturization.

Now, I myself am sticking with the SGG; partly because I feel that rotary autocannons are neat (yes, I know it's a fairly shallow reason, but I do judge both to be roughly as viable as the other); and this is the setting where such a thing could flourish. Weight isn't too much of an issue; we can easily adapt the Lifting Suit for combat use. But still, this is both a decision of stylistic choice, and one of what side benefits we want to get out of the revision: Engine Miniaturization for the SGG-12, Open Bolt action for the SMG-12a.

With that, I rest my case; whatever your choice is, make it. Let this revision be decided via Trial by Votebox.
Alternatively, we find something else to revise and just go with a Shotgun, or do the Power Armor + Sword thing Madman was talking about. That would probably be less reliant on good rolls.

[Parsely]

You need recoil operation to make practical automatic small arms for the regular infantryman and crews of vehicles and heavy weapons, we will inevitably want automatic small arms, so there's a strong reason not to put this off.

If you want a rotary autocannon, the machine gun gatling guns we already have are perfectly suitable revision platforms, an SMG gatling gun isn't going to make that easier. Recoil operated guns are better for infantry until powered suits proliferate. We made the lifting suit for combat, so not voting for the gatling SMG isn't going to prevent us from weaponizing that and making weapons suitable for it.

Miniaturizing the engine is one thing, you also need to miniaturize the battery. That's going to be impossible and if we do manage it then that's tech decades beyond what existed in 1911 IRL, recoil operated firearms existed in 1911 but no one had made a "submachine gun" that used recoil operated fire with that specific combination of design goals, so clearly the SGG-12 is harder.

If you're interested in combat suits you should revise the suit into a combat suit instead of doing the SGG-12, then design an autocannon like you suggested next turn.

[Jilladilla]

Miniaturizing the engine is one thing, you also need to miniaturize the battery. That's going to be impossible and if we do manage it then that's tech decades beyond what existed in 1911 IRL, recoil operated firearms existed in 1911 but no one had made a "submachine gun" that used recoil operated fire with that specific combination of design goals, so clearly the SGG-12 is harder.

It shouldn't need batteries, Parsely, the engine is directly rotating the assembly, and using Gavrilium rods as its power source.

It's literally the same exact mechanism as our current gatling guns, but much smaller and slower.
The difficulty comes in the miniaturization.


EDIT: As for other points:

You need recoil operation to make practical automatic small arms for the regular infantryman and crews of vehicles and heavy weapons, we will inevitably want automatic small arms, so there's a strong reason not to put this off.

The SMG-12 in it's current, crude gatling gun form, isn't much heavier than most early SMG's. Size is about average. Magazine capacity is also average. The feeding system has major issues, and the placement of the crank prevents using the sights, but that's what we get for a 4; something that works but is bad.
Now for handguns and the like I do 100% agree with you, we probably can't make those from gatling guns.

If you want a rotary autocannon, the machine gun gatling guns we already have are perfectly suitable revision platforms, an SMG gatling gun isn't going to make that easier. Recoil operated guns are better for infantry until powered suits proliferate. We made the lifting suit for combat, so not voting for the gatling SMG isn't going to prevent us from weaponizing that and making weapons suitable for it.

A point. Still, I was merely trying to work with our current advantages here (gatling experience, a pseudo-electric engine, not retooling basically the entire existing gun)

If you're interested in combat suits you should revise the suit into a combat suit instead of doing the SGG-12, then design an autocannon like you suggested next turn.

A proper set of powered armor or similar combat suit is probably design worthy Parsely; a revision is going to be a crude thing.

[Twinwolf]

I do think we need a different, or at least a functional, close combat weapon. I don’t think the smg is going to be it because the initial design was theoretical and this will likely be rather difficult to get something out of, and if it’s not I’m going to propose a shotgun design next design phase (barring urgent requests). I’m mostly voting for an smg revision because it’s really the only one of our stuff that really needs revising that isn’t such a train wreck as to make a new design altogether the better idea like the armored car.

[NUKE9.13]

Revisions
SGG-12 (2): Jilladilla, Maximum Spin
SMG-12a (4): Taricus, Twinwolf, Parsely, NUKE9.13
The SMG-13 (1): Yami
ArC-13c (1): Yami
Caelium Sleds (5): Taricus, Twinwolf, Maximum Spin, Parsely, NUKE9.13

Designs
VTR-12 "Ceramah" Radio (4): NUKE9.13, Twinwolf, Parsely, Taricus
Self Propelled Artillery (0):
The Cold Gun (1): Yami

I agree with Twinwolf, basically. I don't expect the SMG revision to actually produce a decent end product (unless we roll really well), but I can't think of anything better to revise, and we could use the experience for later.

[Parsely]

It shouldn't need batteries, Parsely, the engine is directly rotating the assembly, and using Gavrilium rods as its power source.

It's literally the same exact mechanism as our current gatling guns, but much smaller and slower.
The difficulty comes in the miniaturization.

Sure, but those have batteries so that it can store energy, which is fine for heavy weapons. For these SMGs the engine would need to be running all the time because they have no battery. That sounds like a maintenance nightmare and extra steps to get your weapon running. Not to mention that you need bullets and gavrilium fuel otherwise it just can't fire, unless you built in some kind of double action feature.

Still, I was merely trying to work with our current advantages here (gatling experience, a pseudo-electric engine, not retooling basically the entire existing gun)

A proper set of powered armor or similar combat suit is probably design worthy Parsely; a revision is going to be a crude thing.

Fair points.

[Yami]

Honestly I think powered armour would be a huge waste of resources.  It'll be so hard and costly to armour but one man when we could instead get an armoured car going, or you know, just fix the one we've got.  They'll probably both have the same cost, but the vehicle'd have more utility.  Besides, then you've got the rest of our soldiers all thinking, 'Well, I shouldn't go do that dangerous thing we need to do, let the powered armour do it'.  And then everyone's just waiting around for our few powered armour suits to do all the heavy lifting in combat.  Lastly, more cannons or other devices that'd just tear through powered armour would no doubt be cheaper than the armour itself.  So rather'n play it safe, let's just get more vicious.

I just don't think it's a good strategic decision.  I'd rather empower the common man than make them a second class soldier.

~Yami, Mad Genius scientist.

[Parsely]

Besides, then you've got the rest of our soldiers all thinking, 'Well, I shouldn't go do that dangerous thing we need to do, let the powered armour do it'.  And then everyone's just waiting around for our few powered armour suits to do all the heavy lifting in combat.

You could make the same reasoning for tanks or other weapons and yet this isn't the case because of military discipline, experienced soldiers also know the limitations of weapons.

Also, powered suits likely aren't going to be for assaults, more likely it's going to be for turning a crew-served heavy weapon into an extremely mobile platform operated by one man, which means they're not among the infantry during an assault they're supporting it.

[Jilladilla]

Sure, but those have batteries so that it can store energy, which is fine for heavy weapons. For these SMGs the engine would need to be running all the time because they have no battery. That sounds like a maintenance nightmare and extra steps to get your weapon running. Not to mention that you need bullets and gavrilium fuel otherwise it just can't fire, unless you built in some kind of double action feature.

The rods can run for about a week in non-stop operation; and once the engine starts (which only needs a bit of simple rotation, no electricity needed) it's self sustaining until the rods deplete or the engine is forcibly halted (which stops the reaction entirely).

No batteries are needed, for any of our gatlings. Heck, I don't think any of them even have batteries.

Honestly I think powered armour would be a huge waste of resources.  It'll be so hard and costly to armour but one man when we could instead get an armoured car going, or you know, just fix the one we've got.  They'll probably both have the same cost, but the vehicle'd have more utility.  Besides, then you've got the rest of our soldiers all thinking, 'Well, I shouldn't go do that dangerous thing we need to do, let the powered armour do it'.  And then everyone's just waiting around for our few powered armour suits to do all the heavy lifting in combat.  Lastly, more cannons or other devices that'd just tear through powered armour would no doubt be cheaper than the armour itself.  So rater'n play it safe, let's get more vicious.

I just don't think it's a good strategic decision.  I'd rather empower the common man than make them a second class soldier.

~Yami, Mad Genius scientist.

I believe the end-goal was to give every soldier a suit of power-armor... There are quite a few resources to be assigned, Yami.

[Madman198237]

Armoring a single person isn't cripplingly expensive, as seen by the costs of our present lifting suit, which is everything but the armor, which won't be too much of a burden to add now. Armoring a car is just an "all your eggs, one basket" scenario, in which you use more armor and more horsepower than is necessary to cover and power every individual soldier, and the resulting armored car is more vulnerable anyway, as it's larger and less agile than a human.

We already accomplished a powered lifting suit, which is power armor, basically. All we need to do is bolt some armor plates to the frame and boom, instant powered armor. Miniaturizing the engine a bit more would be nice but even that's not necessary. So, your argument about difficulty is incorrect.

Did knights or tanks or artillery or aircraft result in the "common man" waiting around for them to do everything on the battlefield? No, only those things that the specialist equipment was BETTER at. You do not turn them into second-class ANYTHING by making something better, you simply restrict the jobs they do.

Finally: Since the end of the medieval period, weapons have generally outdone armor. HOWEVER...this is a soft sci-fi arms race. Armor can catch up if we want it to. Reducing said armor in size to "human" instead of "tank" or "armored car" also makes it HARDER to hit with the necessarily-large weapons capable of killing them.