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Author Topic: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Summer 1916, Production Phase  (Read 60569 times)

ConscriptFive

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Design Phase
« Reply #600 on: July 16, 2018, 07:50:08 am »

...and that's why I wait at least 48 hours before voting.

Nothing particularly wrong with the African Swallow, I'm just more curious what dice we'll get for aluminum construction.  On a bad roll, it's entirely possible it'll just be a tech stepping stone that'll never go into production.  It's a shame we didn't field any Rhino's with Crossguards last turn so we could judge their performance against the KPAF monoplane.  But I believe we'll get enough mileage out of the Crossguard Rhino that we can screw around with this project.

As for the Law of War vote, we're roleplaying honorable knights, so might as well keep the moral high ground as a doctrine.

Quote from: Voting on Projects
TAC R.M.3 African Swallow(1): Piratejoe
Verusan F1 European Swallow: (5) Sensei, NAV, Happerry, eS, ConscriptFive
--Verusan F1 European Swallow, but with a wood frame and canvas: (0)
--Verusan F1 European Swallow, but with a wood frame, canvas and thicker wing roots (1): Thanik
    --...But after revisions (1): Thanik

Shoot down bailed out Pilots (0):
There is no honor in killing the unarmed (5): Piratejoe, Happerry, NAV, Sensei, Thanik
--Unless it's with a sword (5): NAV, Sensei, eS, Thanik, ConscriptFive

Ask Navy for Torpedo (6): eS, Piratejoe, NAV, Sensei, Thanik, ConscriptFive

Sensei

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Design Phase
« Reply #601 on: July 16, 2018, 12:02:44 pm »

A number of concerns have been raised about the European Swallow, I will attempt to list them here:
-The Crossguard might have an issue supporting multiple guns. If they can't be off to the side of each other, I have a plan to get them on top of each other (credit to discord buddies).
-The plane probably needs stiff wing roots or some kind of additional support.
-Lifting landing gear is risky.
-The engine NEEDS a revision (stated to be unreliable) but I think we should have no problem taking care of that in the revision phase this turn.

With this is mind, allow me to present The Lesser European Swallow, a design which should weather even mediocre dice rolls:

Quote
Verusan F1 Lesser European Swallow: The European Swallow is a low-wing monoplane, with dihedral wings for stability. The wings meet the fuselage with thick roots, and are supported by a wire attached to the fuselage and the far end of the wing at either side. It carries a single pilot, and is powered by a Barnett 1915 engine attached to a four-blade propeller in front. The frame is constructed of hollow metal tubes, of steel or aluminum if it can be found, and covered in canvas. For control surfaces, it has large ailerons and additional, adjustable flaps which can give the wings extra lift for takeoff or slow maneuvers. The tail boom frame is uncovered to reduce cost and weight, and tapers down to a point with a tail with a rudder and elevator. It also includes landing gear supported by an uncovered truss frame for minimum drag. The engine in front is covered by a thin cowl of rounded sheet metal, giving the plane an aerodynamic front. It's armed with two Bolt machineguns in the center, using the Crossguard, side-by side- or if this is a problem for the Crossguard system, stacked vertically, with one gun inside the metal cowl in between the engine cylinders, and the other outside the cowl on top of it. The pilot has a set of sights to aim with between them (or on top of the top gun if stacked vertically). It carries no bombs, and with its low-weight, low-drag design compared to biplanes it is intended to be as fast and maneuverable as possible.

This has most of the benefits for the main swallow, while allowing us to try out only a little sheet metal, having more support, and omitting the retractable landing gear.

Quote
Verusan F1 European Swallow: The European Swallow is a low-wing monoplane, with dihedral wings for stability with thick wing roots. It carries a single pilot, and is powered by a Barnett 1915 engine attached to a four-blade propeller in front. The frame is constructed of hollow metal tubes, of steel or aluminum if it can be found, and the wings and frame are covered in very thin sheets of metal to reduce drag and loss-of-lift to permeability, with large ailerons and additional, adjustable flaps which can give the wings extra lift for takeoff or slow maneuvers. The tail boom frame is uncovered to reduce cost and weight, and terminates in a tail with a rudder and elevator. It also includes landing gear which fold horizontally into an indent under the wings (powered by a long hand lever). The engine in front is covered by a thin cowl of rounded sheet metal, giving the plane an aerodynamic front. It's armed with two Bolt machineguns in the center, using the Crossguard, side-by side- or if this is a problem for the Crossguard system, stacked vertically, with one gun inside the metal cowl in between the engine cylinders, and the other outside the cowl on top of it. The pilot has a set of sights to aim with between them (or on top of the top gun if stacked vertically). It carries no bombs, and with its low-weight, low-drag design compared to biplanes it is intended to be as fast and maneuverable as possible.

I added the language concerning gun arrangement, rounded engine cowl, and thick wing roots to the main design (which might be pushing it but, again hopefully, doesn't require a total re-vote).

Quote from: Voting on Projects
TAC R.M.3 African Swallow(1): Piratejoe
Verusan F1 European Swallow: (4) NAV, Happerry, eS, ConscriptFive
--Verusan F1 European Swallow, but with a wood frame, canvas and thicker wing roots (1): Thanik
    --...But after revisions (1): Thanik
--Verusan F1 Lesser European Swallow: (1) Sensei

Shoot down bailed out Pilots (0):
There is no honor in killing the unarmed (5): Piratejoe, Happerry, NAV, Sensei, Thanik
--Unless it's with a sword (5): NAV, Sensei, eS, Thanik, ConscriptFive

Ask Navy for Torpedo (6): eS, Piratejoe, NAV, Sensei, Thanik, ConscriptFive

If you guys still want to go with the riskier option (that might get us more cool technology) you can leave your votes where they are, otherwise I'll support the Lesser European Swallow.
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piratejoe

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Design Phase
« Reply #602 on: July 16, 2018, 01:22:37 pm »

Lesser or not I feel this is far to ambitious. The African Swallow has two main jumps, it has the engine as a jump, and the dual machine guns as a jump all while making a nice agile aircraft that should be quick to get out on the field, somewhat cheap, and better than the equilibrium. I really think everyone here is overestimating the cost of drag a biplane has in this, the kind of cost we wouldn't see until we get something along the lines of a 500 horse power engine. There was a reason that until the 30's people in the military where still making biplanes for war aircraft.
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Thanik

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Design Phase
« Reply #603 on: July 16, 2018, 01:25:49 pm »

Quote from: Voting on Projects
TAC R.M.3 African Swallow(1): Piratejoe
Verusan F1 European Swallow: (4) NAV, Happerry, eS, ConscriptFive
--Verusan F1 Lesser European Swallow: (2) Sensei, Thanik

Shoot down bailed out Pilots (0):
There is no honor in killing the unarmed (5): Piratejoe, Happerry, NAV, Sensei, Thanik
--Unless it's with a sword (5): NAV, Sensei, eS, Thanik, ConscriptFive

Ask Navy for Torpedo (6): eS, Piratejoe, NAV, Sensei, Thanik, ConscriptFive

I've removed my proposal since the Lesser Swallow envelops the main points as of right now. The dihedral, while increasing stability, reduces maneuverability, so it's not something you'd necessarily want to use if you wanted maximum maneuverability. :P
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piratejoe

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Design Phase
« Reply #604 on: July 16, 2018, 01:29:04 pm »

Since no one is listening to me for some reason, I'm just going to say when this takes forever to make and costs more than the emu I'll still be here...and if it turns out to be unable to do its job I'll still be here but I would say I told you so.
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ConscriptFive

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Design Phase
« Reply #605 on: July 16, 2018, 01:44:36 pm »

Quote from: Voting on Projects
TAC R.M.3 African Swallow(1): Piratejoe
Verusan F1 European Swallow: (3) NAV, Happerry, eS
--Verusan F1 Lesser European Swallow: (3) Sensei, Thanik, ConscriptFive

Shoot down bailed out Pilots (0):
There is no honor in killing the unarmed (5): Piratejoe, Happerry, NAV, Sensei, Thanik
--Unless it's with a sword (5): NAV, Sensei, eS, Thanik, ConscriptFive

Ask Navy for Torpedo (6): eS, Piratejoe, NAV, Sensei, Thanik, ConscriptFive

piratejoe

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Design Phase
« Reply #606 on: July 16, 2018, 01:53:15 pm »

Sensei, I feel like I'm pulling a page out of madman here, but when everyone bandwagons onto this and it fails horribly I will congratulate you for being the greatest asset to the Kol's...at least the lesser is somewhat reasonable.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Design Phase
« Reply #607 on: July 16, 2018, 02:03:00 pm »

Quote from: Voting on Projects
TAC R.M.3 African Swallow(1): Piratejoe
Verusan F1 European Swallow: (2) NAV, Happerry
--Verusan F1 Lesser European Swallow: (4) Sensei, Thanik, ConscriptFive, eS

Shoot down bailed out Pilots (0):
There is no honor in killing the unarmed (5): Piratejoe, Happerry, NAV, Sensei, Thanik
--Unless it's with a sword (5): NAV, Sensei, eS, Thanik, ConscriptFive

Ask Navy for Torpedo (6): eS, Piratejoe, NAV, Sensei, Thanik, ConscriptFive

piratejoe

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Design Phase
« Reply #608 on: July 16, 2018, 09:38:07 pm »

This is the last argument against the European Swallow I have seeing how there isn't much else I can do. With the engine we have at the moment, if we had two identical aircraft with the engine but one was a biplane the monoplane would have at best 5 mph more than the biplane, while the biplane could climb about 50 to 75% faster. With aircraft an important factor involved in aerial combat is altitude as the height translates to potential energy, in a more layman's term, the higher you are, the more speed you can gain in total in a dive. It's why aircraft with an altitude advantage is more likely to come out on top, as the other aircraft has to expend energy to get to the other crafts level, while the aircraft higher up uses his extra speed to pull up and get back roughly to his same altitude with his speed advantage. With biplanes, if the enemy keeps using monoplanes, our aircraft will always be able to have a advantage in climbing ability, and by extension limit any enemy planes advantage with altitude while commonly having one themselves.

Also, if you look at the Eindecker or the Bristol M.1 (found out about that one recently), you can see that there are a number of external wires attached to the wings. These are actually needed despite the drag resulting from them because at the time the technology did not exist to create cantilever wings, and I doubt we'd be able to get those easily (though that is what we are apparently doing from the sounds of things.). As such, they are part of the reason that monoplanes at the time had little performance improvement over biplane fighters in the speed department while being less maneuverable, so if you want to have an effective monoplane that actually has a increase in performance against an equivalent biplane more then just 1 to 10 mph we would need cantilever wings. Regardless, biplanes ruled during WWI, because of their better climb and greater maneuverability compared to Monoplanes and had a lighter wing load resulting in slower stalling speeds. It also should be noted that the truss effect of a biplane with its struts and rigging wires help make the wings stronger meaning they can be built lighter than a monoplane and still handle the same G forces. All of this is why biplanes were so popular in the first world war and monoplanes where few and far between.

Sorry for bothering you all again its just I really really really don't like this plan. If you want me to make any changes to the African Swallow to make you change your vote to it that isn't turning it into a monoplane, please let me know.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 03:03:32 am by piratejoe »
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Thanik

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Design Phase
« Reply #609 on: July 17, 2018, 03:04:55 am »

Quote from: piratejoe
These are actually needed despite the drag resulting from them because at the time the technology did not exist to create cantilever wings, and I doubt we'd be able to get those easily.

We're making the wing roots thicker to account for that, which shouldn't be much of an issue at all, given it reduces the mass of the frame needed while increasing stability for little drag gained. Biplanes didn't have more structurally sound wings, as their wings were often liable to break off due to being thin - and which is why the monoplanes of the time were so fragile (the wings were built akin to biplanes - thin as heck - and so needed reinforcement).

I'm honestly just waiting for the rolls right now.
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Cnidaros

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Revision Phase
« Reply #610 on: July 17, 2018, 02:28:05 pm »

Verusa Design Phase, Early Spring 1915

Verusan F1 Lesser European Swallow
Verusan F1 Lesser European Swallow: The European Swallow is a low-wing monoplane, with dihedral wings for stability. The wings meet the fuselage with thick roots, and are supported by a wire attached to the fuselage and the far end of the wing at either side. It carries a single pilot, and is powered by a Barnett 1915 engine attached to a four-blade propeller in front. The frame is constructed of hollow metal tubes, of steel or aluminum if it can be found, and covered in canvas. For control surfaces, it has large ailerons and additional, adjustable flaps which can give the wings extra lift for takeoff or slow maneuvers. The tail boom frame is uncovered to reduce cost and weight, and tapers down to a point with a tail with a rudder and elevator. It also includes landing gear supported by an uncovered truss frame for minimum drag. The engine in front is covered by a thin cowl of rounded sheet metal, giving the plane an aerodynamic front. It's armed with two Bolt machineguns in the center, using the Crossguard, side-by side- or if this is a problem for the Crossguard system, stacked vertically, with one gun inside the metal cowl in between the engine cylinders, and the other outside the cowl on top of it. The pilot has a set of sights to aim with between them (or on top of the top gun if stacked vertically). It carries no bombs, and with its low-weight, low-drag design compared to biplanes it is intended to be as fast and maneuverable as possible.

Time: 2 | Progress: 1 | Expense: 5

There is agreement among the Sky Crusader’s design team that their next work should be a dedicated fighter, but it takes some arguing before consensus settles on a monoplane design with a metal frame. The project timeline for the Verusan F1 Lesser European Swallow is quite muddled, with the plan calling for several new features to be incorporated while being unclear on the details of their testing. Work on the project also gets off to a slow start, with only a single test model made. Nevertheless, the development expenses turn out to be less than predicted, due to several clever accountants negotiating a bulk discount on steel.

Verusan F1 Lesser European Swallow | 1/19 progress | 2 PP per die | Rushed 0 times | 2 PP invested



Effectiveness: 3 | Cost: 5 | Bugs: 3

The Verusan F1 Lesser European Swallow may or may not be the Sky Crusaders’ first dedicated fighter, depending on how you view the role of the Emu, but it’s certainly an improvement in most aspects. In a move that is definitely unrelated to the Kolechians’ recently unveiled Equilibrium Fighter Monoplane, the Lesser European Swallow is also a monoplane armed with synchronised machineguns.

The Lesser European Swallow uses the recently developed Barnett 1915 V12 engine to power a four-blade tractor propeller. The reliability issues present with the engine from last month have been ironed out as part of the work on the Swallow, and the engine is fit for production, albeit at the cost of a decrease to 180 rated horsepower. At the nose, the engine is surrounded by a thin metal cowl which smoothly blends into the fuselage, reducing drag. The Barnett 1915 currently relies on air cooling to avoid overheating, instead of a heavier water-cooling system like that on the Emu’s straight-eight engine.

Above the engine is the Swallow’s armament: two Bolt Machine Guns side-by-side on the top of the fuselage, firing through the propeller disc with the aid of Crossguard synchronisation gear. Early attempts at rigging the gear to control both guns simultaneously failed, but the issue was solved by the simple expedient of completely duplicating the entire system using separate cam wheels. At the cost of added complexity, this solution allows the firing of both guns at the same time, increasing firepower as compared to either the Emu or the Equilibrium (but possibly less than that of a hypothetical Rhino equipped with both Crossguard and Rhino Horn-mounted Bolts). The iron sights from the Bolt Machine Guns have been placed on the centreline to aid aiming.

The Lesser European Swallow’s biggest innovation is in its construction. Instead of canvas over a wooden frame, the Swallow uses canvas over a metal frame instead. This frame is made of hollowed steel tubes welded together, with the layout of major structural elements such as wing spars unchanged except for being in metal. Aluminium was considered for the metal, but steel was selected for its greater strength and lower cost. Despite the deals struck, the metal construction adds significantly to the Swallow’s cost - not just in terms of raw material, but also the added resources needed to work it when Verusan aircraft manufacturers have been working mostly in wood.

The Swallow’s wings are built with thick roots and wire-braced, to forestall any issues with weakness as a result of having only one wing plane. Large ailerons are included to give the Swallow good roll rate, but the idea of adjustable flaps for greater lift is shelved due to issues with their calibration leading to an underwhelming improvement in lift. The wings also incorporate a moderate amount of dihedral for added stability.

Altogether, the single test aircraft produced is a solid step forward in terms of technological advancement. The pair of test pilots who’ve flown it report that it gets up to a good speed in level flight, nearly a third faster than the Emu and most likely faster than the Kolechian Equilibrium. However, the handling leaves a lot to be desired – the aircraft doesn’t turn, roll or climb quickly, possibly because of its greater mass from the metal frame. At least the aircraft looks sleek – or the front two-thirds of it anyway, ignoring the tail which is a skeletal frame for some reason.

Verusan F1 Lesser European Swallow: A single-seat monoplane, using the new air-cooled Barnett 1915 V12 engine turning a four-blade propeller. It’s armed with a pair of forward-firing Crossguard-synchronised Bolt Machine Guns, giving it good firepower. The Swallow uses a metal frame of hollowed steel tubes instead of wood, giving it higher strength and cost. The wings are wire-braced with thick roots, with a moderate dihedral angle for stability. Speed in level flight is very good, and great in a dive, but manoeuvrability is below par in almost all aspects. Cost: 7/2



Navy Requisition: Light Self-Propelled Torpedo
For development of an aerial dropped munition, the VSC kindly request light self-propelled torpedoes.  Although the system will likely require full re-engineering for aerial use, a system resilient to rough handling is preferable.

Verusan Navy torpedoes (and most in the world for that matter) aren’t light by any stretch of the imagination, but at least they’re self-propelled. The current (and only) torpedo design in use by the Navy is the Barracuda Torpedo. It’s large and heavy, at eighteen feet in length and 1,600 pounds of weight, of which 400 pounds is the explosive warhead. The Barracuda is powered by a wet-heater engine, is fired from deck tubes using compressed air, and has approximately 3000 yards of range before running out of fuel. According to naval traditions, the torpedoes turned over to the VSC all have a few actual barracuda teeth included next to the warhead. There isn’t much documentation about their resistance to rough handling, but the destroyers regularly toss them into the water while sailing at high speed, so it shouldn’t be much of an issue.

Barracuda Torpedo: The Verusan Navy’s one and only torpedo, an eighteen-foot, 1600-pound monster powered by a wet-heater motor. The Barracuda has a range of up to 3000 yards, and comes with actual barracuda teeth, supposedly to "improve penetration of enemy hulls". Cost 2 PP.



It is now the Revision Phase, Early Spring 1915. You have 2 dice remaining to spend on Revisions or bank for the next turn.

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piratejoe

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Revision Phase
« Reply #611 on: July 17, 2018, 02:41:07 pm »

Let me be the first to admit, that went much much better than I was expecting it to, still not great, but definitely not terribad... now then, a revision to the torpedo to allow it to be lighter and air dropped and either getting the new engine into the emu, sky crusader armour, or getting the engine back up to 200hp without losing its current power I feel would be wise.
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Sensei

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Revision Phase
« Reply #612 on: July 17, 2018, 02:57:45 pm »

Right now, do we have a plane that handily carries a 1600lb load? If not we'll definitely want to revise the torpedo and/or our bomb racks.

I'm thinking the Barnett will warrant a revision at some point albeit not urgently.

The LES right now is probably about on par with the Kols monoplane, it goes faster generally but they have a higher climb rate, theirs is more maneuverable but ours is sturdier. I had hoped to do better though. We might want to spend a die to remove the wing dihedral (sorry lol) and make it more maneuverable altogether. Also lol Cnid did not like my exposed tail, I was meaning to save sheet metal for covering it, I should have removed that detail when we switched to canvas.

That would mean in order of priority for our two revision dice:
-Torpedo changes, if necessary
-Swallow maneuverability
-Barnett improvement

Although I'm not sure what other pressing matters might be.
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Kot

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Revision Phase
« Reply #613 on: July 17, 2018, 03:01:07 pm »

Since this faction was chosen for me, I'll just PTW for now and watch how things happen.
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piratejoe

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Re: Knights of the Skies: Verusa Thread - Early Spring 1915, Revision Phase
« Reply #614 on: July 17, 2018, 03:05:13 pm »

We certainly need the torpedo changes, I doubt that the European Swallow can carry around the torpedo with its poor lift and the Emu was stated to be able to carry a total of 4 bottled fury Bombs, in other words 300 pounds. If we revised the Emu with the new engine and made the torpedo smaller, I'm sure it could probably carry it (and also possibly make it as fast as their monoplane if not faster when not loaded with bombs)
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