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[McTraveller]

Yeah, most of the "hell" imagery we got from the middle ages; the Bible does indeed mostly refer just to 'hell' as the state of being in a place from where God has withdrawn himself.  The only real imagery we have is with Lazarus and the rich man and the apocalyptic imagery from the Revelation.  There's talk of 'the grave' more often.

That is - at least from the Protestant Bible.  I think more (like the stuff about Michael) is in the Apocryphal books?

[smjjames]

As an atheist, I've tried to study theology and such to understand the other viewpoints, so ptw. And also, a topic. I've read that Hell isn't really ever described as a place, but rather it is the state of being absent God in your life. Anyone got some scripture to refute or back that up? I believe I read that Hell was conflated with the Pit containing the Lake of Fire that the rebellious angels were cast into by Michael, but again. Just what I've heard.

Isn't Jesus supposed to have physically travelled to Hell at some point? I don't remember what the source of that was though.

It also sounds like loads of other myths where hero (or diety in some cases) x goes down to hell/tartarus/land of the dead for y reason, so, take with a grain of salt I suppose.

[Lord Shonus]

As an atheist, I've tried to study theology and such to understand the other viewpoints, so ptw. And also, a topic. I've read that Hell isn't really ever described as a place, but rather it is the state of being absent God in your life. Anyone got some scripture to refute or back that up? I believe I read that Hell was conflated with the Pit containing the Lake of Fire that the rebellious angels were cast into by Michael, but again. Just what I've heard.

(all quotes NIV)

Ecclesiastes 9

1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God’s hands, but no one knows whether love or hate awaits them. 2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad,[a] the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.

2 As it is with the good, so with the sinful; as it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them.

3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead.
4 Anyone who is among the living has hope —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.


The dead are just that - dead. Not in hell, or heaven, or limbo. Just dead.

Revelation 20

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Everyone who was dead was brought back to life, then those who were not granted salvation were killed a second and final time.

Isn't Jesus supposed to have physically travelled to Hell at some point? I don't remember what the source of that was though.

It also sounds like loads of other myths where hero (or diety in some cases) x goes down to hell/tartarus/land of the dead for y reason, so, take with a grain of salt I suppose.

The only Scriptual source for the Harrowing of Hell comes from 1 Peter. There is debate on what this passage means.

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Yeah, most of the "hell" imagery we got from the middle ages; the Bible does indeed mostly refer just to 'hell' as the state of being in a place from where God has withdrawn himself.  The only real imagery we have is with Lazarus and the rich man and the apocalyptic imagery from the Revelation.  There's talk of 'the grave' more often.

Ah, ah, ah, that's heresy right there. If God is withdrawn from Hell then God is not omnipresent, this belief denies the sovereignty of God over all creation.

Gotta make like the Orthodox do, where the light of heaven and the fire of hell are the same source, eternal union with God in either bliss or torment.

Also the souls of the departed don't live in heaven. They're resurrected upon last judgement and live on a New Earth, with God continuing to reside in a New Heaven.

[Kagus]

There are conflicting reports, and I don't know the specifics of all the references. Jehovah's Witnesses subscribe to the thinking that "Hell" is as you say, not a place, but rather the concept of being removed from God. Gehenna, meanwhile, was just the garbage dump outside of... I want to say Sodom? And the "lake of fire" reported in other portions of the bible are... Well, are you sure you don't want a pamphlet?

I seem to recall Revelations being a bit more precise in what and where exactly Hell is, but Bible 3: Revelations suffers a lot from sequel syndrome and is normally not interpreted very literally. Stuff like how only 144,000 male Jewish virgins will be accepted into Heaven, everyone else is boned (Revelation 7:4, 14:1-4, probably others). So, y'know... to be taken with a pillar of salt.

*King James Version in this case. Also, I'd like to recommend Biblehub for quick and easy referencing of passages. It's very easy to navigate and even provides comparisons of the specific wordings in different versions.

PRE-EDIT: Outposted by ecumenical ninjas... (Y)Ah we(h)ll, writing and sourcing/linking on a cellphone is making a burnt offering of my hands, so I'll have to live with it.

[smjjames]

Yeah, most of the "hell" imagery we got from the middle ages; the Bible does indeed mostly refer just to 'hell' as the state of being in a place from where God has withdrawn himself.  The only real imagery we have is with Lazarus and the rich man and the apocalyptic imagery from the Revelation.  There's talk of 'the grave' more often.

Ah, ah, ah, that's heresy right there. If God is withdrawn from Hell then God is not omnipresent, this belief denies the sovereignty of God over all creation.

Gotta make like the Orthodox do, where the light of heaven and the fire of hell are the same source, eternal union with God in either bliss or torment.

Also the souls of the departed don't live in heaven. They're resurrected upon last judgement and live on a New Earth, with God continuing to reside in a New Heaven.

It doesn't come off as a contradiction of omnipotence or omnipresence, more of a 'I know you exist, but I'm gonna ignore you'. It's certainly open to interpretation since it depends on how you define him being withdrawn, also, Hanislanda describes it as both a state of being and as a physical (or metaphysical or other plane of existence or elemental plane a la DnD or what have you) place at the same time.

[martinuzz]

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Heh, Hades. I never knew God adhered the Greek Pantheon.

[McTraveller]

"Know your audience" is pretty key thing. "Hades" is pretty contemporary with when the Revelation was written, and targeted smack at a particular audience.  Also: apocalyptic literary style yo!

[Kagus]

Old testament also has several mentions of Moloch/Molek, which was... Phoenician, if I recall correctly?

They knew who the competition was and addressed it specifically.

[NJW2000]

Isn't there that bit with Moses where Gods aside from Yahweh are challenged, and fail because they are weak, not necessarily because they don't exist?

Although perhaps there isn't much difference between the two, with gods.

[McTraveller]

Isn't there that bit with Moses where Gods aside from Yahweh are challenged, and fail because they are weak, not necessarily because they don't exist?

That was Elijah in 1 Kings 18.  It actually reads like some Biblical humor... Elijah taunting the priests of Baal.

1 Kings 18:27 (NIV)
At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.”

[USEC_OFFICER]

Isn't there that bit with Moses where Gods aside from Yahweh are challenged, and fail because they are weak, not necessarily because they don't exist?

Although perhaps there isn't much difference between the two, with gods.

That and other incidents in the Bible, like God hardening Pharaoh's heart, makes more sense when you realize that early Judaism wasn't monotheistic. I forget the fancy word for it, but basically they believed in the existence of multiple gods but that only one should be worshipped or praised. Their own, Yahweh. So the early versions of the passages talked about other gods that existed but made it clear that Yahweh was superior.

When Judaism turned fully monotheistic, the priests looked back over the texts and basically tried to edit these other gods out of existence. It didn't make sense for them to exist if Yahweh was the only god in the universe. I believe that's why a lot of demons in the Bible and Jewish folklore have their names based on gods in other, neighbouring religions, since it was easy to convert 'other, lesser god' into 'evil demon'. Sometimes the easy route didn't work so well, however, which is why God hardening Pharaoh's heart is so silly. The scribes literally changed Ra to Yahweh in that passage and called it a day, without paying attention to how it looks in the context of what is going on in the passages beforehand.

[Arcvasti]

I think the fancy word was either Monolatry or Monolatric.

[smjjames]

Isn't there that bit with Moses where Gods aside from Yahweh are challenged, and fail because they are weak, not necessarily because they don't exist?

Although perhaps there isn't much difference between the two, with gods.

That and other incidents in the Bible, like God hardening Pharaoh's heart, makes more sense when you realize that early Judaism wasn't monotheistic. I forget the fancy word for it, but basically they believed in the existence of multiple gods but that only one should be worshipped or praised. Their own, Yahweh. So the early versions of the passages talked about other gods that existed but made it clear that Yahweh was superior.

When Judaism turned fully monotheistic, the priests looked back over the texts and basically tried to edit these other gods out of existence. It didn't make sense for them to exist if Yahweh was the only god in the universe. I believe that's why a lot of demons in the Bible and Jewish folklore have their names based on gods in other, neighbouring religions, since it was easy to convert 'other, lesser god' into 'evil demon'. Sometimes the easy route didn't work so well, however, which is why God hardening Pharaoh's heart is so silly. The scribes literally changed Ra to Yahweh in that passage and called it a day, without paying attention to how it looks in the context of what is going on in the passages beforehand.

Huh, I didn't know that early Judaism wasn't monotheistic. Though it does make sense that it didn't start out monotheistic and evolved towards that over time.

Fun fact: Ancient Egypt almost went monotheistic (sun worship) due to rogue pharoah (forget which one, Atenhaken or something), but it failed because the priesthood was still a strong political faction.

[ChairmanPoo]

Some theories suggest that jews went fully monotheistic after contact with Atenist exiles.


But yeah,  original jews were not monotheists.  There is plenty of evidence of it, even in the Bible itself, if you look closely.