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[McTraveller]

So this comes up here and there in other threads, so rather than the massive rails that be lost in those threads, it seems prudent to start a dedicated thread.

The goal of this thread is to foster Bible discussion - let's keep it focused on the Christian Bible.  I think we can include the Aprocrypha too as that's interesting (and to be honest, I know very little about it, so I'm up for some learnin'!).  I don't want to veer off into, say, the Book of Mormon though (I'm pretty sure they count that as separate from the Bible anyway).

Groundrules: this is about discussing Biblical topics and thoughts on grand themes.  It's not about comparative religion or about if it's true, a myth, or whatever - just focus on the book.  Discussing variations between translations is fair game.   Keep it civil, keep it focused, and I think we can avoid locks and bans.


Topic the First:  Job.  We started some brief stuff in the WTF thread regarding Job and its relation to the problem of evil, and how it fits in with various overall themes of the old and new testaments.

[Teneb]

Five tons of flax, is what the answer to the problem of evil is.

[smjjames]

In the Old Testament, God went down to Earth and got into a wrestling match with a dude (Jacob) that lasted an entire night or something for reasons. I think it was for the universal championship or something.

He also told one of his prophets (Isaiah), "Hey yo, Isaiah sounds like a normal name, but you gotta name your sons Shear-Jashub and Maher-shalal-hash-baz"

There also that one time kids were making fun of the baldness Prophet Elisha, so God came in with the assist by summoning bears to maul 42 of them

Old Testament had some wacky stuff in it

Literally said bears attacked or just said they were ferocious beasts without specifying?

[TamerVirus]

(23)From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” (24) He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

2 Kings 2:23-24

[Kagus]

Might be a good idea to state the particular translation you're drawing passages from, for the sake of clarity. We wouldn't want another "adulterer's bible" situation now would we?

Or... would we?

[TamerVirus]

i think its the new international version translation, but the meaning remains constant across translations:

Dude gets called bald
Suddenly bears!

[McTraveller]

Yeah, don't mess with Elisha.

You have to keep in mind the purpose of the prophets... and although that story sounds crazy, if you go back to where prophets were first...uh... ordained I guess is the appropriate word*, Israel was warned to treat them seriously.  So those stories about poor treatment of prophets were probably both true and perhaps exaggerated to instill in the people of Israel the idea they should respect their prophets.  (Note also, though, that prophets were given a high charge to make sure they only said what God was telling them - they would get 'whacked' if they made up their own stuff.)


*Somewhere in the Pentateuch. I can't remember exactly. It might be as early as Exodus with Moses, then probably repeated a fair bit.

EDIT: "Adulterer's bible" - heh I forgot about that one. Been a long time since I was reminded of it.  You have to give Christianity this much - it's fairly honest, all things considered, about the odd things in its religious-text history.

[smjjames]

I bet it would have been funnier if they materialized out of thin air than wandered out of the woods, or at least something more dramatic like erupting out of the ground.

[Lord Shonus]

I think we can include the Aprocrypha too as that's interesting (and to be honest, I know very little about it, so I'm up for some learnin'!).

Are you referring to the books of 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Tobit Judith, Rest of Esther, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus/Sirach, Jeremiah, etc. (those books found in early Latin Vulgate versions of the Old Testament but not in the Hebrew canon), or to the various "gospels" beyond those in the standard New Testament?

[McTraveller]

I think we can include the Aprocrypha too as that's interesting (and to be honest, I know very little about it, so I'm up for some learnin'!).

Are you referring to the books of 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Tobit Judith, Rest of Esther, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus/Sirach, Jeremiah, etc. (those books found in early Latin Vulgate versions of the Old Testament but not in the Hebrew canon), or to the various "gospels" beyond those in the standard New Testament?

I think it's both, isn't it?  At least some of the NT ones.  Basically, the ones you'd get in some Catholic bibles.  Maybe the criteria should be "anything that was canonized at some point in time".  So if it was never canonized, then out.  I'm actually curious to here if anything was once canonized and then taken out - like those were from the catholic to protestant Bibles.

[NJW2000]

Ptw. It's easy for me to oversimplify the Bible in the theology side of my course, given that I have pretty much no interest in it. So I'd better trick myself into paying attention by following a b12 thread on it. Here's hoping we have a lot of thelogians.

[smjjames]

In the Old Testament, God went down to Earth and got into a wrestling match with a dude (Jacob) that lasted an entire night or something for reasons. I think it was for the universal championship or something.

Didnt he lose the match, too?

Pd:  yep he did

And he arose that night and took his two wives, his two female servants, and his eleven sons, and crossed over the ford of Jabbok. 23 He took them, sent them over the brook, and sent over what he had. 24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. 25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. 26 And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”

But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”

27 So He said to him, “What is your name?”

He said, “Jacob.”

28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel;[a] for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

Soo.. did God throw the fight(kayfabe)? Or was he trying to find out what would happen if he created a wrestler so beefed up that not even him could beat him?

Maybe the deal was to not give up until daylight?

prefakeedit: I hate to do this to you McTraveller, but it's inevitable the bible will get compared to other mythologies.

fakeedit: Actually, it reminds me of the Odyssey where Menelaus (thought it was Odysseus that did it though) wrestled with the shapeshifter god Proteus to get some information out of him. So, it's by far not the only story with the theme of wrestling (variants could be other feats of strength or possibly feats of the mind) with a god or goddess to get something from said diety.

[Lord Shonus]

I think we can include the Aprocrypha too as that's interesting (and to be honest, I know very little about it, so I'm up for some learnin'!).

Are you referring to the books of 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Tobit Judith, Rest of Esther, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus/Sirach, Jeremiah, etc. (those books found in early Latin Vulgate versions of the Old Testament but not in the Hebrew canon), or to the various "gospels" beyond those in the standard New Testament?

I think it's both, isn't it?  At least some of the NT ones.  Basically, the ones you'd get in some Catholic bibles.  Maybe the criteria should be "anything that was canonized at some point in time".  So if it was never canonized, then out.  I'm actually curious to here if anything was once canonized and then taken out - like those were from the catholic to protestant Bibles.

You're only referring to the former part, then. The extra "gospels" beyond Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were never part of the Catholic, Orthodox, or Lutheran canon, although a few were accepted in the early pre-Catholic Church.

This is because, despite the oldest complete texts dating back no farther than the 4th century, fragments of the traditional Four Gospels have been traced back to around 70-90 AD, within a few decades of the estimated date of the Crucifixion. Meanwhile, all of the others have no trace before the late 2nd century, and some don't appear until the late 5th century.

[ChairmanPoo]

In the Old Testament, God went down to Earth and got into a wrestling match with a dude (Jacob) that lasted an entire night or something for reasons. I think it was for the universal championship or something.

Didnt he lose the match, too?

Pd:  yep he did

And he arose that night and took his two wives, his two female servants, and his eleven sons, and crossed over the ford of Jabbok. 23 He took them, sent them over the brook, and sent over what he had. 24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. 25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. 26 And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”

But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”

27 So He said to him, “What is your name?”

He said, “Jacob.”

28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel;[a] for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

Soo.. did God throw the fight(kayfabe)? Or was he trying to find out what would happen if he created a wrestler so beefed up that not even him could beat him?

Maybe the deal was to not give up until daylight?

prefakeedit: I hate to do this to you McTraveller, but it's inevitable the bible will get compared to other mythologies.

fakeedit: Actually, it reminds me of the Odyssey where Menelaus (thought it was Odysseus that did it though) wrestled with the shapeshifter god Proteus to get some information out of him. So, it's by far not the only story with the theme of wrestling (variants could be other feats of strength or possibly feats of the mind) with a god or goddess to get something from said diety.

Actually, how is this?


"JACOB"
"Who is that?"
"I AM THE GOD OF YOUR FATHER, THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, THE GOD OF ISAAC "
"My Lord!"
"ARE YOU A WORTHY SERVANT JACOB?"
"Yes my Lord!"
"ARE YOU WILLING TO OBEY ME, THE LORD YOUR GOD IN ALL I COMMAND?"
"Yes my Lord! Anything!"
"GOOD..."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Hanslanda]

As an atheist, I've tried to study theology and such to understand the other viewpoints, so ptw. And also, a topic. I've read that Hell isn't really ever described as a place, but rather it is the state of being absent God in your life. Anyone got some scripture to refute or back that up? I believe I read that Hell was conflated with the Pit containing the Lake of Fire that the rebellious angels were cast into by Michael, but again. Just what I've heard.