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[thvaz]

I'm worried about the trends.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=dwarf%20fortress

So it is not only the forum. The trends indicate less people are interested in Dwarf Fortress. The release in november barely made a difference in the downward trend. Currently there is no impact in donations, but for how long?

If you make some stats on this, you see that the "trend" is downward since 2011.
Look at the stats carefully (I did that for you)

Interest   Donation      Don/Int 2004   1       2005   0       2006   57       2007   214         19 052           89 2008   337         32 318           96 2009   428         32 516           76 2010   729         54 501           75 2011   767         42 294           55 2012   752         57 855           77 2013   663         48 999           74 2014   553         66 765           121 2015   391         60 603           155 2016   387         89 423           231 2017   319         83 491           262

So, interest trend has been falling for 6 years (most than half of the project life), and, at the same time, it has generating 5 times more money than it used to make.
Therefore, I don't think an hypothesis of a huge drop of donation will follow this drop of attendance.

Thanks for the data gathering. It is quite obvious the more people know about Dwarf Fortress today than ever, and it must have some relation with the large increase in donation (as well as new tools that ease the act of donating, like Patreon), however, there are always people moving to other interests, and the flux of new players must be constant in a project with the scope of DF that span decades.

[Maximum Spin]

Also, let me say...Reddit has by far the worst and most hard to follow layout of anything I've read, ever.

God yes. SMF may "look pretty early 2000s", but, if so, I guess that means the early 2000s were our cultural acme for basic legibility.

[RedKing]

I'd also like to point out that without even ATTEMPTING to identify "the problem" these statistics are pretty useless. And take that sentence itself with a grain of salt because as far as I can see, there is no problem, there is simply a cultural shift. Much like how MUDs are complete trash compared to modern day games, traditional forums have become somewhat cumbersome and unwieldy in comparison to social media.

God forbid we translate Bay12 into a twitter following lol, but there is something to be said for how sites like Reddit and Imgur organize posts, content, and interesting groupings in general. The appeal of DF is in part it's refusal to rely on visual clarity, apparent via endless upon endless tirades about menus, and graphics, and visualizers, but if you take a huge step back and really be objective about it, these forums look pretty early 2000s.

Though search query volume is something to be concerned about, it doesn't necessarily mean that interest in the game is fading, it could simply mean that interest is not growing as quick as it once was, and with famously long periods between releases that is bound to happen in an increasingly ADHD social media environment.

To go back to the MUD analogy, if you've ever played a MUD, you'll usually find a grizzled, ugly group of core players that has been playing for 30+ years, and likewise you'll find another group of spritely, young curiousos who are very much interested in the game, but can't really fit in with the now-ancient veterans, whose decades of in-jokes, house rules, and tastes fly over the heads of the youngsters. The same thing very much happens in any community, business, or other social grouping and certainly could be happening to this one. I think, in part, we have actually lost a surprisingly high number of core Bay12ers (RIP Girlinhat, the OG Bay12er that everyone knew) which, exacerbated by a high volume of more recent bans, has left the community feeling a little devoid. Some new members came in to fill the void, but were quickly rejected by Bay12 at large (See: Neonivek) -- and I'm not saying that it was wrong for that to happen, but we are now at a place where the most iconic members of an older generation are gone and the new generation has very few iconic members.

Heck, I remember when I was essentially the Neonivek of the community (I think) but lo and behold Bay12 has generally shifted much more towards my brand of humor/argument/general attitude. I've changed as well of course, probably becoming a little more aligned with how things were originally done around here.

The point is this: Bay12 is shifting culturally--as it always has, as we always are, and as most humans do in general--and though it has become more modern in its "site personality" it is still perhaps an artifact from a different time. It's really hard to predict what will happen to Bay12, The Forum, in the coming years. I think it IS safe to say Dwarf Fortress is no longer quite as famous as it once was, the articles have been written, the interviews given--what more is there to tell, until people feel it is time for such a gem to be rediscovered? If there is a major, major update then perhaps bay12 will be on the up and up again--after all, it seems most people discover the forums through the game--but perhaps it will simply slide into decay until someone wonders what ever happened to it all? And I think without reinventing ourselves, which carries it's own diverse range of positives and negatives--some quite extreme--we are mostly at the mercy of public curiosity.

There is no problem with this really, it's just life, and whatever happens most Bay12ers will always be able to say that the forums had a lasting impact on them, that this whole thing was a part of their life, and that the memories made here are for forever. Such is the way of things, and if you are a connoisseur of internet history, you may already know that such a thing has happened many times before to sits more famous than this one, and that it will probably still be happening after we are all long-dead.

wat

1. There have been no bans in almost five months, which is approaching one of the longest "peaceful" periods in B12 history.
2. Neonivek had been a regular member for years prior to his...instability. I wouldn't call that a quick rejection.
3. I agree that the cast list of the most active posters (especially in GD) has morphed over time -- I'm no longer nearly as active, for one -- but that's always been the case. That's always been the case on any online grouping I've ever been part of, whether it was an IRC chatroom, a message board, etc. That's just life.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

@Nenjin,

Bay12 has always had a essay-styled intellectual niche, and for that I applaud it, but when everyone is wondering WHY the community is dying--well it's because most people like Imgur, Twitter, Facebook over that.

I agree with you, Bay12 has a much higher standard of discussion than the vast majority of other sites, and that is why I like it--also for being most troll free and considerably more chill than other sites.

BUT, it does have to be said that Bay12 is somewhat behind the times in style and format, I'm not saying we should really do anything differently, simply that, y'know we are basically the grizzled, ugly veterans of the MUD that is the internet. I don't like the character limits of Twitter, or the facetious oversight of Facebook, or the isolationist, self-reinforcing dogmas of Tumblr (and Facebook to a lesser extent), and it can all be done better for sure, but there is a reason that basically all the most popular sites on the web don't look like this one.

@Redking,

1.) There was a PERIOD of high ban volume, I'm not saying we're in that period right now.

2.) I mean, okay, but for how long was he highly visible--towards the end, it felt like everyone knew him and was tired of him. It certainly wasn't always so.

3.) I agree?

@Maxium Spin,

Again. Not saying we have to look like Reddit, just pointing out that we're a bit dated. Heck, I don't like Reddit either, it's just a convenient example of how different formats are readily surpassing ours.

[Silverthrone]

Well, the question must be asked; the people who do enjoy Twitter, Snapchat, Imgur, et cetera, and would not like it here, do we truly need them? Would they need us?

This particular environment is dated. However, I believe that it is part of what makes it what it is, and the drawbacks of being dated are not quite worth changing to adress. It is similar to Dwarf Fortress itself, I suppose. Perhaps things will change, or perhaps the day might come when changes must be made to conserve the development of the game, and the community that is part of it. However, that change must be made in service for the game, for Toady's vision and the players, not in an effort to draw more people in, who might not be very interested. The worst thing one can do is to upset something good for the sake of someone who would not ask for it, nor be very interested in it regardless.

As an aside, my word, if Dwarf Fortress were an ordinary project, run as an ordinary project, it would surely have peetered out into history by now, after so many years. There cannot be many other projects in development that has kept on going quite so steadily for a decade as Toady's dwarven magnum opus has. Were it the model of a modern game project, a slim, trimmed, visual and stream-lined dwarf-game, Kickstarted or crowdfunded in the traditional manner, I am quite sure it would have been just another former project by now. Perhaps there would have been a decent game with dwarves in it at some point (I believe there would have been), but it would not have been this growing, expanding oddity of a game, and the world would be worse off without it.

[Truean]

Please do not quote:

Lots to consider


DF is trailblazing; forum is safe; maintenance is low; payoff is high; user usefulness exists.

Everyone copied Dwarf Fortress; it was and IS groundbreaking. The bugs (e.g. Marksdwarf training) being worked out alone are invaluable to the larger gaming world. DF was one of the first open gaming world and is STILL the biggest, because no one else has a 100s z of levels deep place like this with the complex layer developments. Every aspect of DF dives into new territory, literal real estate, or the tissue layers of dwarves. Going beyond the Hit Point system alone as DF has is insanely useful for the future.

The Forum is as safe as it gets online, and online is NOT safe anymore, for kids, teens, college students, or otherwise. People do not get this and it can ruin their lives. Lasting ... consequences. Things can be a major issue for a LONG time thereafter. A lot of people growing up are not taught this kinda thing and it's from just not being shown. When your dad talks like that forever.... Eh, it's not a good thing. I'm not excusing anything, but really, it's good to have a place where younger people can say things to figure out some of the things they probably shouldn't say. Learning experience.... Again, I'm not justifying things, but I can sympathize with somebody who grew up around a racist dad saying bad things (you learn what you're shown by your parents, for better or worse), if they can have a chance to grow past that bad behavior. Keep in mind, I'm somebody who has received hate mail and death threats from being transgender, but who has also talked to some people with anti GLBT views here (some changed some less so). Point being, it's a way to show people a decent way who've never been shown.

The dated forum is low cost and low maintenance. That means it's easier upkeep and more stable. Bells and whistles have pricetags. It's simple and minimalist. Really, most of those things mentioned could probably be done with some work on the part of the poster and w.... That's not going to happen, but it could theoretically. We could maintain guides with linkposts to things. Did that a while ago with signatures, etc.

Ultimately, I think this forum has a lot of usefulness for everyone who wants it. The internet is full of crap, and we're all easily overwhelmed by it. Here, it's pretty good by comparison. New blood needed, yes, and let's support the "Lazy Newb Pack" type things that make this game accessible. Let's tell the stories that make it compelling. Let's have the talks that make it worth it both about and outside the game.

This place had an incredible sense of community ranging through every type of person you can imagine, still does, but it might benefit from some help. How do we do that? No matter the tech it's about people and processes and draw.

Please do not quote:

[Truean]

O Dude, it's cool. I have nothing against the newer registered posters. I miss not having some of the old ones.

[Teneb]

Honestly, even the idea of "most of the forum posters here have been around forever" isn't really true. I just went to one of the more popular DFGD threads (this one) and sure, there are people posting in that thread who have accounts registered in 2008, 2009, and 2010. There are also several posters with forum registration dates in 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017.

I think that idea applies more to regular GD than to DFGD.

[Truean]

How do we retain people? That is how do we get them to want to stay? What can we offer that they might like (and that we might like doing)?

[scriver]

I suggest more LotR movie quotes

[dragdeler]

I have discovered the game a little less than a year ago. Having made all my researches in 2017, I can confirm that I can't shake the impression that 2011 was the golden age of forum activity. But the game only got better... I think it unlikely that I would have been able to maintain interest for 6 or 12 years. So I consider myself rather lucky, than having missed out on a social experience.

Tough I must say, the fact you people can actually play trough this game, qualifies you all to a level of interest I almost never vest in real life people. And in a way that pays off, most of you are smart and nice. But I am some kind of sick hermit who substitutes the constant frustration of human interraction with the occasional glimpse at this forum, whenever I can. Because anything happening here is so much more interesting than facebook, reddit or youtube's top suggestions. That's where my relationship with the forum comes from, I decided I was tired to look social networks and asked myself what I used to do on the internet before all that shit. So I isolate myself, phyically and virtually and even tough it's kind of a resignation, I gain some weird strength and determination out of it. To me it is clear that visiting b12 generates much more pleasant toughts than FB; because it's some sort of oldschool letter friendship instead of dumb dopamin triggers, jealousy and reactionarism.

[WealthyRadish]

I think bay12 is uniquely attractive to a peculiar sort of people, and that this source of people is nearly entirely independent of whatever other developments happen on the internet (or the slickness of the software), but what I will say is that the small size of the lower boards community makes it vulnerable to internal volatility.

I consider the "recent" bans to be significant, because a single person can be very influential in a roster of like 15-20 in an area. What's specifically stood out to me as lacking lately is impassioned debate and argument, relative to the previous years I've been around. Maybe that decline is due to the bans, maybe it's just people getting tired after the 2016-17 madness, or maybe it's just temporary fluctuations in the personalities present, but significant disagreement seems to be getting rarer.

[ChairmanPoo]

I suggest more LotR movie quotes

The forum is changed.Foru aldaketatuta dago I feel it in the threadsHagietan sentitzen dut. I feel it in the polls Inkestetan sentitzen dut . I smell it in the shitposts. Gorotz-mezuetan usaiten dut

Much that once was is lost; for none now live who remember it.

[RedKing]

I think bay12 is uniquely attractive to a peculiar sort of people, and that this source of people is nearly entirely independent of whatever other developments happen on the internet (or the slickness of the software), but what I will say is that the small size of the lower boards community makes it vulnerable to internal volatility.

I consider the "recent" bans to be significant, because a single person can be very influential in a roster of like 15-20 in an area. What's specifically stood out to me as lacking lately is impassioned debate and argument, relative to the previous years I've been around. Maybe that decline is due to the bans, maybe it's just people getting tired after the 2016-17 madness, or maybe it's just temporary fluctuations in the personalities present, but significant disagreement seems to be getting rarer.

Ain't gonna lie, the great Ameripol massacre of 2016-17 impacted my posting frequency. Not because I was scared, or felt censored, but because I recognized that I wasn't necessarily a positive voice and had contributed to that strife.

[A Thing]

I suggest more LotR movie quotes

It´s of no use, scriver. The forum is changed. I feel it in the threads. I feel it in the polls. I smell it in the shitposts.
Much that once was is lost; for none now live who remember it.

The age of the Dwarf is over!

_{Now begins the age of the crab.}