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[RoseHeart]

As discussed on discord, the lich is a support hero

I can't play the game if major points of contention are discussed with one side over this format.

There's questions to be answered and as was elaborated, Discord makes it easier to talk back and forth. But when there's pretty much one or two main questions in the thread I do not see how it becomes slower to answer those then the Discord. I understand the value of back and forth. But simple brief answers should still be possible in the thread. Which I don't feel like it's happening*.

So if crazy Abe could explain how intelligence and the Lich works here. And if we can all just ease up on these walls of text I'll tell you right now I'm not going to put in my scuba diving gear for them.

The Berzerk rage makes all your units within roughly 5-15 meters of the archdevil more violent, and less able to differentiate between friend and foe for several hours, leading them to charge fearlessly to their deaths, or turn on your own side if they run out of things to kill too soon.

*This was informative.

[crazyabe]

Unsouled = walk into traps anyone can see intelligence disadvantage, Lich counters that issue, intelligence affects what tactics they use when ambushed/without a competent leader

Lich has multiple debuff abilities, the ability to add a few hundred extra fighters to your total units each round, and the longest range out of all the champions.

[Doomblade187]

I will start by posting all GM posts relating to starting sets here.

GM - Today at 8:00 AM
Imps are about as strong as the Unsouled, which are about as strong as your average human, about as smart as a human(which can't be said about the other two options, one  of which hits "Swarm" insect level) and have skin about as tough as leather, they gain disadvantage in the height direction(They are only 2 feet tall) in exchange for their many benefits.

The Lich is a "Master of curses and some minor necromancy" that means he knows multiple debuff spells (exact debuffs will be learned if you take him) and has the ability to produce a few hundred skeletons and other minor undead outside of combat each era.

They are VERY different range, the lich can cast on someone 1-2 hundred meters away, the arch devil can throw roughly between 30-50 meters away, and the Horror has no real ranged abilitys.

The devil has the second greatest attack, while the Lich has the greatest range.

GM - Today at 12:51 PM
Spells are something you need a source to build off, otherwise its like you are constructing a house with no experience in construction and no design except a general description of what a house looks like.

I know this isn't enough to keep discussion even, but I will try to maintain back and forth between the discussion spaces.

World Info:

Tauron, The Salt Beneath - Yesterday at 10:02 PM
Question what the heck is the Unformed Plane? Is it basically a Anti-Ethereal plane, so an anti-magic world?
GM - Yesterday at 10:03 PM
Its a Space of Pure order, and is resistant to magic and deviation from its normal structure.


GM - Yesterday at 10:05 PM
Unformed, because there is no life there, no water, nothing except for the gates leading out and the ground beneath it.

GM - Yesterday at 10:07 PM
Ethereal is in a state of constant change, and is on the other end of the spectrum, dangerous not because of its lack but because of its abundance of existence.
The Ground of the unformed is the whitest you'll ever see, the sky the blackest, it is a space where there is NO deviation.(edited)

GM - Yesterday at 11:06 PM
Gained more time, Long story short, every plane besides the 4 points and the center has "islands" of other elements, floating islands in Air, Bubbles in water, ect, they are hard to navigate unless you have an ability related to that element too.
Prime mat' is a plane much like our earth, with a bit of each element.

Prime mat' is a plane much like our earth, with a bit of each element.

[RAM]

I will start by posting all GM posts relating to starting sets here.

Doomblade187 for champion!

As to the description of imps, I feel it is possible to be mislead by it, IT doesn't mention the other races' bonuses. While imps no doubt fight about as well as unsouled when numbers are even, unsouled will always outnumber them all else being equal. The orcs are as numerous and fight better. Intelligence can be turned into better fighting, but you need to work on it. I doubt the imps will be much good if we don't add a high-quality tactic, which we should do regardless so that isn't really a thing, but still... Meanwhile, the unsouled may be ignorant enough to jump into a spiked pit because they want to hit the thing on the other side, but there are enough of them that the pit will eventually fill up, and they are also ignorant enough that morale failure isn't really a thing either. But we finally seem to have a consensus on starting options, so let's look to the future?

On that note, an alternative to the beefcakes would be something with fire-wands incorporated into its breathing so it can do the flamethrower thing. And some sort of shield-arms to hide behind while it recharges. It would be a front-line unit for an all-ranged army, if we want to avoid friendly fire. But so long as we focus on fire magic and fire immunity then that ought not be a thing?

[Doomblade187]

Fun fact: each side has the choice of two base sets which will work best for specific planes, and a general set in addition to three Champions!

[darkwarlock3]

i vote for lich and unholy

[Doomblade187]

Unholy- [7] PirateJoe, Doomblade, helmacon, endlessblaze, Roboson, RAM, darkwarlock
Bezerk- []
Horde- [3]  Roseheart, NRDL, failbird

Lich- [7] Doomblade, RAM, Roseheart, endlessblaze, helmacon, Failbird, darkwarlock
Archdevil- [3] PirateJoe, Roboson, NRDL
Horror- []

[darkwarlock3]

i think unholy and lich win. yay for democracy?

[RAM]

Well it seems decided then. We could take advantage of the lich's skill by making stupid units. Keep it in reserve in case the enemy tries to make our people stupid. Or try to revise it into something else...

-Switch it from avoiding obvious things to more subtle things like shifts in battle lines or reacting to special threats. Probably resulting in a reduced power but consistent reduction of casualties?
-They could impart some of their mental faculties into their necromantic powers. Leaving the lich mentally tired(no stupidity protection) but granting the undead they summon increased intelligence?
-Focusing this power, along with curse magic, they might be able to impose their awareness onto one of the soldiers. The victim's head would probably explode after a while, but in the meantime their would have a front-line commander able to lead complex manoeuvres. It would probably be a bit like having a little miniature warrior champion. Except instead of being one big guy who can crush everything, it would be a squad of normal dudes with greatly enhanced coordination and positioning.
-A combination with curse magic to have them directly pit their mind against others, creating a stupidity beam that would make others as stupid as souless.
-Or we could make stupid units to work with the lich. They ought to get a price reduction for being stupid, but it is not our speciality, so it is unlikely to see the same efficiency as the soulless would have gotten on the smarts=>numbers exchange. At least for the first action. Also it is worth remembering that the lich is a champion, so we can expect them to only be in one plane at a time. If we really hate stupid, then this may be a poor choice. Although, bear in mind that at either end of the world there are less planes. If we rely upon our champion to buff our units then it gets easier at the ends and more difficult in the middle.
-Another option is to not build the lich. It is expensive, and it is no doubt a powerful unit. But mere knownledge of it grants us two magic disciplines, a coordination skill, and a template for powerful magic-users. If we just throw it away and instead focus on curse-wands, command imps, zombification spikes, and wizard ghosts, then we might not notice the difference...
-Your idea!
-just ignoring it is okay. Lich is still strong even without it.

[darkwarlock3]

these are good things to consider but we should have average int for the army and have the lich focus on high threats with debuffs while its being commander and slowly overwhelm them with the ever increasing troops through necromancy
just an option

[Doomblade187]

these are good things to consider but we should have average int for the army and have the lich focus on high threats with debuffs while its being commander and slowly overwhelm them with the ever increasing troops through necromancy
just an option

I like the idea of actually using curses to turn the light army against itself through illusions/madness/good old propaganda.

[darkwarlock3]

i like your thinking this might be the route to take. i wonder if the others would agree with this

[helmacon]

Idea for initial revision

Axe caster

Essentially just putting our shadow blades on the flame caster, you make a one sided axe that can throw fireballs. An axe is a straight upgrade over a dagger. Having the two items put together will make them much more versatile as well. The time you would otherwise spend switching between your two weapons is suddenly non-existent.

[RoseHeart]

Spoiler: Imps and Lich, where have I seen this before..? (click to show/hide)

Since there were some desire for cheap units, I'm guessing that imps will be a close secondary for that.

As for the votes that wanted the demon champion, perhaps we can compromise by modifying the Lich to be a little bit harder and beefier.

Q: can we modify our champion?

Proposal:
I doubt that they are going to have anything that can sneak in and get our Lich early on, so modifying an imp species that has the mass production value of The Horde seems ideal.

Create Souless Imp Species with Horde Swarming Tactics.

[darkwarlock3]

we also should plan on what they might try to do. what do we go toward after this plan