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[FallacyofUrist]

I am unsurprised that your role is borked.

Now, the question is whether or not you're actually an SK miller, or you are actually an SK.

But that remains to be seen. I can't glean that from one post.

Actually, how about I ask you some RVS questions.
~~~
Skrag:
1. How relevant are peacocks to your role?
2. Do you think such a vague question deserves to be called role fishing? Is it scummy? If so, are you going to pressure me about it?
3. On a scale of 1(least) to 11(most), how important to the game do you think themes are.
4. You are given a post restriction that requires you say "nyah" at the end of each of your sentences. You also learn that it'll disappear at the end of the next night, but anybody who hits you with an action will be given the exact same auto ability. Do you make any attempts to persuade people to act on you or not act on you?
5. Are you a serial killer? Answer clearly, please, for the sake of a hypothetical truth teller.
6. What do you think the probability of there being a truth teller in this game is?
7. Why do you think I asked each of these questions?
8. Finally, are there any of these questions you didn't answer, and why?
~~~
Alright, skeletal hand ninja.

Fallacy
What is your favorite gambit (to use or in theory), and how would you counter it if you found it being used against you?

Never mind the fact that the only gambit I know the name of is the refuge in audacity.

There's a fairly interesting one I've been thinking of, where a townie claims survivor at LYLO and says they wish to side with scum, then tell the truth once the scum reveal themselves. But I think that would be in poor taste. Not really my favorite.

But can a single gambit really be a favorite? A gambit that might be good in one circumstance but not in another.

I get that this probably wasn't what you were looking for, but gambits aren't my best mafia subject. If you want a more solid answer, ask some question involving hypothetical roles.

Assuming you think those are worth asking, anyhow.
~~~
KYOSN mod ninja!

... TolyK obv cult leader gambit.

Well, maybe.

Well, a vote is meant to be used. TolyK: What do you think the odds are that a cult leader might pass their conversion off as an expanding mason group?

And don't ask me why I'm not using it on doll in response, because I'm answering that now: because doll has claimed she'll be dead D2. If she's not, you can expect(most likely) that my vote will go right onto her.
~~~
KYOSN mod double ninja!

Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..

It's never too late for hypothetical RVS question!

TolyK: If you were actually a cult leader, how would you go about convincing me you weren't the cult leader and getting my vote off you?

[flabort]

Flabort:
Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..

Good wonderful morning you bastards Getting the game going with two whole pages of posts in my sleep.

Alright, skeletal hand ninja.

Fallacy
What is your favorite gambit (to use or in theory), and how would you counter it if you found it being used against you?

Never mind the fact that the only gambit I know the name of is the refuge in audacity.

There's a fairly interesting one I've been thinking of, where a townie claims survivor at LYLO and says they wish to side with scum, then tell the truth once the scum reveal themselves. But I think that would be in poor taste. Not really my favorite.

But can a single gambit really be a favorite? A gambit that might be good in one circumstance but not in another.

I get that this probably wasn't what you were looking for, but gambits aren't my best mafia subject. If you want a more solid answer, ask some question involving hypothetical roles.

Assuming you think those are worth asking, anyhow.
~~~
KYOSN mod double ninja!

Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..

It's never too late for hypothetical RVS question!

Hmm. I'm not really a fan of rolefishing or encouraging others to rolefish - I could ask you some questions about hypothetical roles, though, if you really want. Also, yes, it's never too late for RVS questions; if RVS is over, you can still mix RVS questions into the game if you run out of other routes to pursue.

OK, here's the question.
What do you want to bet that Shakes is an SK-Miller Scum? There's nothing saying that a miller HAS to be town,  after all, just that they are TYPICALLY town behind their inaccurate investigation.

[TolyK]

FoU:

KYOSN mod ninja!

... TolyK obv cult leader gambit.

Well, maybe.

Well, a vote is meant to be used. TolyK: What do you think the odds are that a cult leader might pass their conversion off as an expanding mason group?

I'm obviously biased, so 0%.
If I want to give a real answer, though... pretty slim? It'd be a definite gambit to just publicly say who I'd invite and ask them whether they want to join. After all, isn't the point of a cult the fact that alignment changes? I guess you could make a point for trying to not recruit scum or some special conditions for the cult recruiting, but other than that I don't see a point in giving additional information I could've quite easily withheld, were I a cult leader...

And don't ask me why I'm not using it on doll in response, because I'm answering that now: because doll has claimed she'll be dead D2. If she's not, you can expect(most likely) that my vote will go right onto her.

... what? Do you mean who you're voting? That's an unusual preemptive answer.

KYOSN mod double ninja!

TolyK: If you were actually a cult leader, how would you go about convincing me you weren't the cult leader and getting my vote off you?

Well, considering there's very little I could do to prove I'm not a cult leader, sans opening up all my cards, I would probably not care too much unless you were actively trying to lead the town to my lynch (and potentially succeeding). Since my death would probably be a setback for the town, I'd consider explaining my role in more detail to convince that I'm not a cult leader.

Interestingly, if Jack accepts the experiment, I could more or less prove to you specifically that I'm not a cult leader during this day. I would prefer not to, but I might if it comes to that.


flabort & FoU:

Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..

It's never too late for hypothetical RVS question!

Flabort:
Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..

Good wonderful morning you bastards Getting the game going with two whole pages of posts in my sleep.

To rebutt those answers: You don't think there are enough leads already to start picking away at? Generally RVS is where you don't know anything, and ask around to get leads. It's not a necessary phase for all games; latecomers to the action might already have enough to work with that they can skip RVS.

For example, I basically skipped RVS to ask Jack that question and pick at what others have said in response to RVS questions.

[Lenglon]

Perseus: Ill get to you when I get to you. apparently I needed a 4-hour nap.

Jack: I have no clue what sleepy-me was thinking. sorry.

be back after taking care of biological needs with questions.

[Lenglon]

Doll: If my not-fully-awake brain understands you correctly, you claimed to get maximum influence over other players for the brief (1-day) timespan youll be alive. so... congrats, youve got influence over me, whadaya want me doing? ya want a claim? a vote on a specific target? a... what?
why did you gather influence on me and then not use it? that stuff has an expiration data ya know.

Tolyk: why pick Jack in particular for your experiment?

[TolyK]

I already explained part: I feel that I can get a better read on him via actions than via posts (meta-knowledge: it's been hard for me to read him in the past).
The other part I'll explain conditional on whether he accepts or not.

[Lenglon]

Persus: you wanted a question. were you being given the offer Jack is, would you accept? under what circumstances would you change your answer?

[TheBiggerFish]

doll:Are you dying because of your role, or because you expect the Mafia to kill you with that claim?

[flabort]

flabort & FoU:

Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..

It's never too late for hypothetical RVS question!

Flabort:
Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..

Good wonderful morning you bastards Getting the game going with two whole pages of posts in my sleep.

To rebutt those answers: You don't think there are enough leads already to start picking away at? Generally RVS is where you don't know anything, and ask around to get leads. It's not a necessary phase for all games; latecomers to the action might already have enough to work with that they can skip RVS.

For example, I basically skipped RVS to ask Jack that question and pick at what others have said in response to RVS questions.

There's basically three leads. Doll's crazy claim, Shakerag's miller claim, and Jack's theme claim. None of these were resulting from RVS questions, and all three are hard to confirm or deny - and further questioning about these claims won't be helpful, as like I said its very hard to confirm or deny anything these three say about their claims. It's just an unhelpful pile of WIFOM.

Now, there is the idea that observing other people's reactions to the claims, and specifically looking for any role fishing or scum tells in their reactions will be helpful, but that is merely observation; to do anything actually useful, you need to ask questions, and that is why I started with RVS questions, rather than skipping straight to analysis.

[TheBiggerFish]

TheBiggerFish
At what stage does RVS end for you? Do you ignore RVS like some and wait until later in the day to start scum hunting, or do you find RVS to yield useful data sometimes?

It depends on how random you define random to be in RVS.  I don't really get onto a solid footing until the first lynch has panned out, generally, but I wouldn't say it's truly random once people are throwing coherent arguments around.
That's not a dichotomous question.  RVS can yield useful data, but I don't often know what to do with it.

[4maskwolf]

4maskwolf:

b]4maskwolf[/b]

Jack A T: What I make of it is that this game is going to be a headache that makes me long for GBU 2.

Man that game was awhile ago. What about that game was headache inducing? Also, why do you bring up that game all the time?

I'm pretty sure that's the first time I've mentioned it in years?  And nothing from you was headache-inducing, the daygame was headache-inducing in that game, which is what I was going for in my comment to Jack.

Now, what's my theme?  My theme is Chaos.  That's it.  Don't read too much into it, given that there's no guarantee it affects anything in the game.

Time is slow here, so two years ago is still recent for me.
Judging by past BYORs, your theme accurately describes the entire game. So why are you attempting to minimize it?

Because there's no guarantee what, if anything, my theme applies to, and with such a generic theme there could be chaotic elements that would have been included without taking my theme into account.  We really shouldn't be looking too hard into themes because that road leads down a WIFOM rabbithole.

Shakerag: Good to know?

flabort: Look, fuck if I know what the mod was doing.  It was funny, it didn't happen during the game itself, that's all I really care about in this case.  Why are you so interested in the subject?

[Tea]

I don't find Pozzai's or Lenglon's votes alignment indicative. I think that you voted me because of how you decided to go about your question wall, but that the mindset behind the wall is important. The rest of your post about me beyond the vote makes me feel uncomfortable because the loaded premise --> blatant reaction test question is just ... super inorganic? Like, the wagon and the LET'S DEMAND AN INSTANT RESPONSE TO THE WAGON in tandem is just..distracting from letting me find what I /do/ think is alignment indicative, and is making the most important thing about me to the thread this super artificial thing.
Was your wall of questions written in the order that you posted it in?

Tea: The wall of questions was written in loosely linear order, with editing and adjustments.  Pozzai was placed at the bottom for some separation from the more RVSey preceding questions, and doll (and by extension 4mask) was placed at the top for flow.

I voted you not because of how I decided to handle the mass questions, but because Pozzai voted for you.  Multiple votes can generate some interesting reactions, both from the target and from those around, and Bay 12 has tended too far against placing multiple votes on the same person in RVS (making the "V" in RVS even less meaningful).  This generated interesting reactions.  Notably, you seem to put more weight on a facially ridiculous RVS vote than it is due.

What makes this vote, which you recognize is absurd, "the most important thing about [you]" in the thread?  Do you fear that it will stay in place?

I believe you that you didn't develop the idea of asking doll until after you got your role PM. Considering Pozzai was already at the bottom of the playerlist I'm not sure why him ending up in that spot took that much more thought for you? Also, there's a pretty significant tonal shift from your question to OrigamiScienceGuy and your question to TolyK, which I'm curious about.

It's not a particular vote that makes me uncomfortable. (And to be clear, what I meant by your vote being because of the wall was that I think by taking a wide net interactional approach, that made it more likely that you would vote me and talk to me about it. Although I do believe you that you were more likely to double up votes anyway based on your response.) I'm uncomfortable because I feel like the continual milking of reactions to this hella artificial thing diverts attention from things more likely to make the thread understand me and vice-versa.

My perception of what Jack has claimed about his theme is that the thought processes reflected up to and including the doll question were probably ~completely from pregame and that his role PM gave him no real reason to not want to jump in with that. I do think an easy way for scum to appear town is to articulate pure, pre-scum role PM thoughts - but I dunno that I feel that's any more likely than chance.

All questions were written and almost all ideas were developed after the game started, with full awareness of my PM.
[/quote]
...Even though you posted before the game was rolled here, you weren't curious about flabort's reaction until after reading your role PM? Because I felt like that was really the meat of what you decided to include about your claim - using that pregame information as a jumping off point to create RVS information.

Tea,

Ironically if you're lying about your theme Jack, that would make me feel better than if you're telling the truth.

I'm curious why you brought this up prior to Jack elaborating beyond "because."

My perception of what Jack has claimed about his theme is that the thought processes reflected up to and including the doll question were probably ~completely from pregame and that his role PM gave him no real reason to not want to jump in with that. I do think an easy way for scum to appear town is to articulate pure, pre-scum role PM thoughts - but I dunno that I feel that's any more likely than chance.

Can the same be said for scum and town, though? Town wants to give information to others, but not too much too fast because of potential danger. Scum wants to appear like they're giving relevant info, while actually minimizing usefulness. How do we differentiate?

This is kinda what I was getting at with what I asked Pozzai; I think telling people what they can do to be more townread is a bit dangerous as town. I don't have a specific strategy in mind for assessing cageyness w/r/t info claims. Well, besides feels.

Tea
Explain in your own words the significance of a Finger of Suspicion.

It means someone decided to use an archaic buzzword term to describe someone they suspect but aren't voting. The significance of that is pretty contextual. Why do you ask?

-

FallacyofUrist, what's your preferred alignment?

[TheBiggerFish]

Tea: The question stands, who the heck are you?

[Tea]

Tea: The question stands, who the heck are you?

TheBiggerFish: Nice to meet you. In spite of your curiosity, you didn't search my previous posts in the subforum? I played a couple of games here 2 years ago; was pleasant other than the super high flaking rate.

In 2009-2010 I played a lot of IRC mafia on XylBot + forum mafia on MafiaScum, and since 2013 or so I've been flitting around the internet looking for a mafia subforum to call home.

Still stands, other than the "nice to meet you" bit.

[Tea]

So what's the most meaningful thing you've gotten out of your questions so far, TheBiggerFish?