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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Devastator]

In regards to the we can't make a cruise missile thing that's nonsense. This thing was was able to hit 4 out of 14 targets which sounds poor until you see it had no active guidance what so ever and was made in 1918. The only other option is a rocket sounds ok until you notice we don't even have liquid rocket fuel.

Do note that a 'hit' wasn't a hit on a ship sized object, or a moving target.  And that the bomb was very small.  And the system was extremely slow.  And extremely short ranged.

[Kashyyk]

And that it was produced almost thirty years ago. We should be able to solve those problems.

I still want to make a battleship at some point, but you've convinced me that a cruise missile is also useful.

UFN-BB-43 'Victorious'(2): Madman, helmacon
UFN-ASM-44 'Saltseeker' (9): Jilladilla, Taricus, eS, Conscript Five, voidslayer, McHuman, Lightforger, RAM, Kashyyk
UFN-SSCM-44 "Noose": (6) Kot, Wizgrot, Powder Miner, Andrea, NAV, Zanzetkuken

[Light forger]

Do note that a 'hit' wasn't a hit on a ship sized object, or a moving target.  And that the bomb was very small.  And the system was extremely slow.  And extremely short ranged.

None of this really works against us making a ASM/cruise missile. While it couldn't hit a ship sized target let alone a moving one, that's why we are using guidance. As long as we can get it within a couple of kilometers of the target the guidance does the rest. Also leading for movement is pretty easy versus ships not matter because no matter what Micheal bay says cruisers can't make sharp turns let along drift. While the payload is really small so was the 'cruise missile', it's payload to weight ratio is on par with our rocket artillery. It's top speed is in the ball park of fighters of that era; the listed speed was it's cruising speed. It also had an extremely long range; 121km which is quite a bit when compared to the termite a cold war era ASM(40km) and our radar(30km). Also the whole being nearly three decade old thing.

[Wizgrot]

Light, the range of the Noose is largely reduced. Most of the weight have gone to make it as fast as possible and putting into countermeasures. They are gonna try and make missiles to intercept it before it reach their ships. It is just how they are. If we donīt put countermeasures, they ARE gonna make somethig to intercept us. Remember, they already have supersonic missiles. Besides, having something that can be used from the ground, sea and air (Ice Giant will be finally relevant once again).

Besides, if we truy want an air defense latform to destoy their helicopters, we better decomplexify radar to allow to see those helicoptes coming. Kotīs design is an ugly as fuck bastard children of all our technology put together, but Sensei did say that working on existing tech is better. Besides, that wa we wonīt be doing such a large tech jump, which would add to the dificulty of the design.

[Light forger]

First off AM missiles and CIWS are hard, they still are unreliable today even when facing missiles 20-30 years their senior. Second off they don't have either right and now so unless they are cheating and decide to make something to counter our ASM this turn they have nothing. If they don't do that we can revise on that stuff later. We aren't Cannala, bogging down something until it gets boosted to impossible means we get nothing usable and if we roll low we will get no progress what so ever.

Also on a unrelated note, I finally found the quote about shaped charges versus ships(although from something with a larger warhead) "Soviet tests revealed that when a shaped charge warhead weighing 1,000 kg was used in the missile, the resulting hole measured 5m in diameter, and was 12m deep".

[Wizgrot]

Of course, but Cannla is way more advanced than us in missile technology. Besides, using an existing airframe would be easier ad period appropiate. This way, we wonīt be doing a ten year jump, which would make Sensei glee as he puts our tecnology in the VH-Impossible espectrum. And having inexpensive radar is quite important, as well as using this design  somewhere other than the sea, as it would onlyne us Naval Advantage, which matters, but not too much.

I would need some clarification about what you mean as shaped charge however. A missile warhead? the Heat concern is interesting however. Would you rather exchnage it for HE?

My main objection is that you are making a early 60īs ASM. Letīs just stick to early 50īs designs and that way we wonīt have to make too large jumps or design a casing for our missile.

EDIT:

Okay I see what you meant for a shaped charge. But still, it would be easier to convert a plane to do that rather than a create a missile from the sixties. And we are basically making a shaped charge by making a HEAT warhead.

[Devastator]

Soviet tests revealed that when a shaped charge warhead weighing 1,000 kg was used in the missile, the resulting hole measured 5m in diameter, and was 12m deep".

That sounds a lot bigger than it really is.  It's smaller, significantly smaller than the holes ripped by contemporary torpedos (and by that I mean contemporary with the game, not with that missile), with much smaller payloads.  Most notably at Taranto, where torpedos with 250kg warheads ripped much bigger holes in ships.

That test is an argument against shaped charges, not in favor of them.  They're a bad idea, and no better than standard SAP bombs against ships.

[Light forger]

If you want to make a cruise missile, that's fine.  Same with an anti-ship missile.  But please don't bring up bad evidence in favor of such.  A 5m diameter hole isn't particularly big for a 1000kg warhead.

That was through a cruiser's armor.

In more important matters, after much whining I would support adding in a towable/static launch ramp for the saltseeker. It really shouldn't make it harder and is useful for defending ourselves from naval attack and holding ground. I'm however for more ambivalent about including a ground attack version. I feel that would be better left for a revision.

[Devastator]

..and my counterexample, Taranto, was against battleships.  Underwater hits simply deal more damage.  ASMs are used because they cost fewer casulties, as you don't need to get as close to your opponent, and when you have better technology you can deal damage without reprisals.  In order for it to work here, we'll need a longer effective range than enemy carrier aircraft, and be able to detect the targets from similar range.  That's too much to ask for a design out of nowhere.

[Kot]

In order for it to work here, we'll need a longer effective range than enemy carrier aircraft, and be able to detect the targets from similar range.  That's too much to ask for a design out of nowhere.

Well, I mean, VVF should have had around (or rather, over) 1000 kilometers of range, so there's that, Lightning Streak should have few hundred too, so might just not decerase the fuel tank, but then there's probably not much space for explosives.
Still, I don't feel like our ships are dying fast enough and don't have such lack of air cover that "only" ~100km ASM would be a bad design.

[Devastator]

Yeah.  Go with air-launched ones, much better if you aren't getting shot out of the sky and have carriers.

[Kot]

No, I meant as an airframe base for the missile.

[Light forger]

Yeah.  Go with air-launched ones, much better if you aren't getting shot out of the sky and have carriers.

They have proximity flak which, just like in at the end of WW2 killed off our ability to use torpedo bombers. That's why we are trying to get an ASM because our Haasts get killed by flak. Which I will point out is pretty much what people did after WW2 see the komet. The fact that torpedoes do more damage doesn't matter as we can't use torpedoes in the first place. Also their carriers don't have torpedo bombers either they just launch fighters from them as A: their only torpedo bomber is an outdated prop plane from the 20's and B: their only aerial torpedo can't beat our torpedo belts.

Edit: Also our only combat usable 'bomber' is an attack plane with a one ton payload limit.

[Devastator]

Sounds like you need radar bombs or guided torpedos, then.  If all you need to dodge is proximity flack, just have your drop points be like 5 or 10 km out from the ship, instead of putting a hell of a lot of effort into getting missiles with 200km range.  An air-launched ASM or guided torpedo should be just the thing.

Really, you just need the least amount of range necessary to evade their countermeasures.  If it's proximity flack, you only need ranges of a few kilometers, not hundreds, in which case air to ship missiles would work fine.  A surface to surface missile isn't necessary and is a lot harder.

Don't make the project much harder than it needs to be to get the job done.  You don't need 200km range to beat flak that has a range of 2-3km.

[Kot]

Sounds like you need radar bombs or guided torpedos, then.  If all you need to dodge is proximity flack, just have your drop points be like 5 or 10 km out from the ship, instead of putting a hell of a lot of effort into getting missiles with 200km range.  An air-launched ASM or guided torpedo should be just the thing.

Really, you just need the least amount of range necessary to evade their countermeasures.  If it's proximity flack, you only need ranges of a few kilometers, not hundreds, in which case air to ship missiles would work fine.  A surface to surface missile isn't necessary and is a lot harder.

Don't make the project much harder than it needs to be to get the job done.  You don't need 200km range to beat flak that has a range of 2-3km.

I'd support the idea bunch of turns ago, but Cannala set a precedent for what can be achieved. They got supersonic missiles, so at this point we are entering the era when ASM are a thing.
Otherwise, Sensei biaz.