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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Devastator]

I'd support the idea bunch of turns ago, but Cannala set a precedent for what can be achieved. They got supersonic missiles, so at this point we are entering the era when ASM are a thing.
Otherwise, Sensei biaz.

If it must be supersonic, there's nothing about it being air launched that would prevent that.  Might make it easier, too, since the missile's launch point and velocity can be more easily controlled by the pilot.

[Wizgrot]

The thing is, Devastator, that the Noose is the only design that can be used from planes and is the simplest design presented for an ASM. The Saltseeker is based on something which is ten years apart from the Noose. Yeah it might be more tight fit and useful in 40 km ranges, but we donīt need to make a super advanced missile for the sake of just advancement.

The Noose is a focussed and a appropiate measure to defeat their ships and give our troops on the ground a way to deal with fortifications. Besides, it lends a chance to get a Horseiller like design with the radar integration.

[Devastator]

Wiz, I'm arguing against making a fancy surface to surface ASM, not in favor of making one.

[Wizgrot]

There are two different designs of surface to surface missiles now. The fact is, if you want to make a difference, vote for it. One, at least, allows for the posibility of being launched from the bomber-esque Ice Giant, so it can serve as a sort of air to surface missile.

But anyways, apart from the design that you loathe, what do you think are our priorities at the moment?

[Sensei]

UFN-ASM-44 "Saltseeker"

Based on the Piracy Warning, the United Forenian Anti-Shipping Missile 1944 "Saltseeker" is a naval missile designed to seek and destroy enemy ships from a great distance away.

The Saltseeker is a 5 meter-long missile with short, stubby wings and turbojet engine.  A pair of short solid-propellant rocket boosters mounted on either side of a turbojet engine launches the missile, allowing it to get up to speed before a kerosene igniter engages the turbojet in order to give the Saltseeker a near-instantaneous launch speed.  The sensor suite uses our Deadliest Ray cavity radar to gain signatures, and a small set of vacuum tubes filter the signatures by size (ship-sized targets) and distance (selecting the closest one only).  Another set of tubes guide the servos controlling the rear fins in order to point the missile towards the closest target, allowing it to home in.  Lastly, a proximity sensor in the belly of the missile (either borrowed from the Piracy Warning or using a radar altimeter, whichever is easiest) allows the missile to dictate its altitude over the ocean surface.  When within a set distance of its target (100 meters or so) the missile will descend in order to meet the target at sea level.

The Saltseeker is designed to be fired from an angle off the deck of a ship before leveling out in flight. A Saltseeker mount can take the place of a turret on a destroyer or cruiser, with a goal of two missiles per mounting.  The layout of the missile is seekerhead - fuel - warhead -engine.  The warhead is essentially a large HEAT charge, approximately 400 kg.  Range is expected to be approximately 40 kilometers in radius.

Current Relevant Technology:
-VVF's airborne Radar
-Numerous years of rocket designs (SARUKH, Artemis, Rocket-Boosted Artillery Shells, etc)
-Turbojet tech
-Stolen Piracy Warning
-Sensei please just cut us a break here
-Longshot Radar Guidance

Very hard: 4
UFN-ASM-44 "Saltseeker": The Saltseeker is an anti-ship missile which is powered by a jet engine after a rocket assisted launch, and uses active radar homing. Its guidance system, based on a simplified the Deadliest Ray radar with a comparatively low resolution to the ordinary plane-spotting version, steers it towards the radar contact of the greatest intensity ahead of it, which is determined by some combination of the size of the target and distance to it. Normally this will steer it to the closest large ship but it also gets confused by shorelines. The altitude is controlled not by the angle to the contact, but by a conventional altimeter, and the distance to the target (it flies high at first, then when the target is only a few hundred meters away, descends to sea level). Depending on the weather this can be imprecise enough to miss above the target or impact a wave. The missile is 5 meters in length and has stubby wings with elevons (the missile will only roll to keep itself level) and a rudder in the tail. The jet engine has an intake under the missile, keeps it at a speed of around 800kph, to its maximum range of 48km. The size of the radar system necessitates that the entire missile is larger than ideal, but it does carry a lot of fuel and a 500kg shaped charge warhead. [5 Ore, 5 Oil]

Edited: Noted that the radar is not complex in this missile, but it is a lower quality and only spots large objects such as ships.

[Sensei]

REGARDING URANIUM: Because Uranium is a very special resource, I am allowing it to be stockpiled for later turns. You can store two turns worth of Uranium. For each turn you hold Vlanlados you get one Uranium. Choosing to do an experiment consumes one Uranium, or making a nuclear bomb costs one Uranium. Using your Revision to experiment on Uranium uses only half a turn's worth of Uranium, the remaining half-amount can only be used for another revision experiment.

[VoidSlayer]

So those should be common enough in our navy, now do we fix them or fix something else?

A revision to decomplexify the advanced radar and include it on the missile would benefit both the missile and any future designs.

Edit: or maybe turn our existing battleship into a missile battleship?

[Kot]

UF-SPAAS-44 "Sewing Machine"

The Sewing Machine is essentially another revision of the Velociraptor autocannon, based on the VVF version, this time lengthening the barrels significantly, making them water-cooled and quad-linking them together for higher fire rate of at least 3000 rounds per minute.
The weapon is mounted in a special powered (to make very fast turns possible) mount that's either available as a separate trailer, mounted on Artemis trucks or instead of a Salamander turret, with any armour on the gun being a secondary concern. It should also be mounted on ships (and other anti-aircraft places that need it) were applicable, most notably on destroyers where they would also be useful against enemy torpedo boats.
The mounting itself should contain a system that somewhat resembles the Long Shot guidance, except adapted for anti-air use, where the gun can be linked to an external radar , either static, carried by another truck or ship-based one, which will make acquiring, tracking and destroying enemy targets much easier, but the gun is also possible to aim by hand.
The ammuniton itself should include a mix of armour piercing and fragmentation rounds (if neccessary, each gun fires onw type of ammo, but Velociraptor revision should have fixed that).

EDIT: Also, I think T-25 would be a much worse choice in long run - Salamander has space to put radar in further down the line.

UF-SPAAS-44 "Sewing Machine": (1) Kot
Blame everyone other than me for getting the inferior missile: (1) Kot

[Wizgrot]

UF-SPAAS-44 "Sewing Machine"

The Sewing Machine is essentially another revision of the Velociraptor autocannon, based on the VVF version, this time lengthening the barrels significantly, making them water-cooled and quad-linking them together for higher fire rate of at least 3000 rounds per minute.
The weapon is mounted in a special powered (to make very fast turns possible) mount that's either available as a separate trailer, mounted on Artemis trucks or instead of a Salamander turret, with any armour on the gun being a secondary concern. It should also be mounted on ships (and other anti-aircraft places that need it) were applicable, most notably on destroyers where they would also be useful against enemy torpedo boats.
The mounting itself should contain a system that somewhat resembles the Long Shot guidance, except adapted for anti-air use, where the gun can be linked to an external radar , either static, carried by another truck or ship-based one, which will make acquiring, tracking and destroying enemy targets much easier, but the gun is also possible to aim by hand.
The ammuniton itself should also be revised to maximize penetration on AP and also include proximity fuzes on fragmentation rounds.

UF-SPAAS-44 "Sewing Machine": (2) Kot, Wizgrot
Blame everyone other than me or the people who voted for my design for getting the inferior missile: (2) Kot, Wizgrot

[evictedSaint]

I was gonna suggest making the Artemis into a short-range mobile SAM site, but the Sewing Machine is a pretty solid idea.

UF-SPAAS-44 "Sewing Machine": (3) Kot, Wizgrot, eS
Blame everyone other than me or the people who voted for my design for getting the inferior missile: (2) Kot, Wizgrot
Ignore Kot since he's a sourpuss: (1) eS

[evictedSaint]

Stencil Pack

In order to improve moral, we've issued a set of stencils and can of spray paint to all ships and tank and plane crews.  These include a pack of paint cans and stencils in aggressive (teeth, evil looking eyes, flames and such) or patriotic (flags, emblems, "All pirates get the Noose" phrases") patterns, so crews will be able to personalize their missiles/tanks/planes/ships, which will surely boost morale.

UF-SPAAS-44 "Sewing Machine": (2) Kot, Wizgrot
Stencil Pack: (1) eS
Blame everyone other than me or the people who voted for my design for getting the inferior missile: (2) Kot, Wizgrot
Ignore Kot since he's a sourpuss: (1) eS

[Kot]

Eagle Pack
In order to improve morale, we perform Blood Eagle on evictedSaint. Again.

Although maybe we should rename the Saltseeker to BLOOD EAGLE II.

[Madman198237]

UF-SPAA-44 'Hayat'
A T-25 tank with the side armor thinned down to just 25mm and front armor reduced to 40mm, both machineguns and the 50mm cannon turret removed, and a new electrically-rotated and elevated 20mm-armored turret installed. The turret has no roof and only comes up to slightly past the gunner's shoulders (his two loaders sit slightly lower and are completely concealed). The vehicle's armament is composed of two 40mm cannons mounted right next to each other, and loaded from the outsides by the two loaders. The 40mm cannons are copies of the Bofors 40mm antiaircraft gun using whatever firing system is easiest for us to make (APIB or copy of the Bofors system, whichever), capable of firing AP, HE, and HEAT [and any other bullet type given in our design doctrines]. The turret is capable of depressing to fire at infantry and armored vehicles at close range, and elevating far enough to shoot at aircraft (especially improbably armored helicopters). The turret assembly is a standalone design that can be placed on ships or in static emplacements that have the necessary electrical power.

Cons: More guns are often better for high-speed aircraft than longer-ranged and more powerful guns (i.e., Kot's Shilka-based revision would be better if the Cannalans had a meaningful low-flying ground attacker)
No radar control (not that that's possible in a revision), meaning it will be pretty much incapable of doing anything other than making jet fighters vaguely uncomfortable when they get closeish to the ground

Pros: 40mm blows things up. Including light armored vehicles, medium armored vehicles, aircraft, hostile landing craft, MTBs, destroyer turrets, and enemy infantry.
40mm is actually easier on logistics compared to extremely fast-firing 20mm like Kot's proposal, though whether that will actually factor into the cost is anybody's guess.
The Americans found that double-40mm turrets (specifically on the M42 Duster) were extremely effective at killing off infantry at long and medium ranges, and were also capable of taking coordinates from nearby artillery batteries for really long-range fire.
Also, because it's based on a fairly light tank chassis, the armor is reduced and the weight of the turret should be down, this thing should be capable of fulfilling the presently-unfilled light tank role. Presently, Salamanders often end up scouting, but now we can just send the Ultimate Can Opener to do it instead. It will be capable of absolutely wrecking Raiders pulling scout duty.

UF-SPAAS-44 "Sewing Machine": (2) Kot, Wizgrot
Stencil Pack: (1) eS
UF-SPAA-44 'Hayat': (1) Madman

[Kot]

Cons: More guns are often better for high-speed aircraft than longer-ranged and more powerful guns (i.e., Kot's Shilka-based revision would be better if the Cannalans had a meaningful low-flying ground attacker)

Less guns means you usually have bigger gun, which will be better for high-speed and high-altitude enemy planes. More guns are better in general but lack the range - literally everything you can make fly will NOT survive a direct burst from a Shilka anyway, and with more rounds per minute you have much higher chance to hit. Also, it's not like that the difference between 30mm and 40mm is THAT sizeable. For longer-range more powerful guns you are looking at Yenisei, which had 57mm.

No radar control (not that that's possible in a revision), meaning it will be pretty much incapable of doing anything other than making jet fighters vaguely uncomfortable when they get closeish to the ground

Not with lower firerate it won't.

Pros: 40mm blows things up. Including light armored vehicles, medium armored vehicles, aircraft, hostile landing craft, MTBs, destroyer turrets, and enemy infantry.

Sure, so does 30mm.

40mm is actually easier on logistics compared to extremely fast-firing 20mm like Kot's proposal, though whether that will actually factor into the cost is anybody's guess.

Logistics haven't been that important, although I see the point.

The Americans found that double-40mm turrets (specifically on the M42 Duster) were extremely effective at killing off infantry at long and medium ranges, and were also capable of taking coordinates from nearby artillery batteries for really long-range fire.

Soviets found that quad 23mm was extremly effective at killing off everything at long and medium ranges, and were also capable of murdering everything everywhere.

Also, because it's based on a fairly light tank chassis, the armor is reduced and the weight of the turret should be down, this thing should be capable of fulfilling the presently-unfilled light tank role. Presently, Salamanders often end up scouting, but now we can just send the Ultimate Can Opener to do it instead. It will be capable of absolutely wrecking Raiders pulling scout duty.

Sending an AA vehicle to do scouting? Oh boy. Also, my main issue with T-25 is that... it will ultimately not have enough space in it to have a radar inside if we ever get to revise it, not to mention less space for, after all, bigger rounds.

[Madman198237]

Sorry for laziness about requoting stuff so neatly but

1. The difference between 30mm and 40mm is huge. Remember, exponential increase in shell volume.

2. Um, yes it will. "Vaguely uncomfortable" is a fairly low marker to aim for anyway, and seeing 40mm tracers go past the canopy is going to make you feel fairly uncomfortable in an aircraft.

3. 40mm just does it a lot better. To the point where it's like an actual explosion instead of just a half-size grenade. And 30mm is far less effective against MTBs and destroyer turrets and armored vehicles.

4. Sadly (maybe not sadly) that is true.

5. Yeah but not with accuracy, so if you miss your firerate goals it won't work well. And it might not work well in general considering that 20mm doesn't hold that much in the way of high explosives.

6. Again, read up on the M42 Duster. The Americans used it (to great effect) in Vietnam. The only problem was overly sensitive contact fuses, which we will not have a problem with. The T-25 was not actually a light tank, it was a full medium/MBT, thus it has enough armor to act as a great light tank even if the armament is a little strange for a light. And if it doesn't have space [again, ex-medium tank should be good enough], well, the only new thing in this revision is the turret. Take the turret out and slap it into something with enough space for the radar.

6.5 As for space for ammo, the Bofors 40mm only ever fired at about 120 RPM and that's at maximum firerate which should be used only to break up massed aircraft attacks, so we shouldn't be running out of ammo since the T-25 had plenty of 50mm ammo, and 40mm is much smaller than 50mm, and it's not fighting tanks. It'll be fighting (like, fighting and not getting annihilated instantly) only glorified tin cans and glass cannons.