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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[10ebbor10]

Ok, I went ahead and made a list... Tell me if I missed anything? (I'll join up on the Discord, my user name is Nemonole... In fact that's the alias I go by nowadays, Bay12 predates that though.)

Your effort is appreciated, but I actualy made a spreadsheet to calculate this automatically.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=11Q-YNqHW0WSO_oL7vEtGJnP9QOXEUxx7BREMYt3ynhg

[NUKE9.13]

The Saltseeker, whilst neat, will be so ineffective as to be essentially useless. Not to mention, it will probably be VH, meaning we might not even get any experience out of it.

As such, I'm going to use some strategic voting here, and vote for the Lightning Streak. My vote is still flexible, though.

Missile/Rocket
(4) UF-ATGM-41 Saltseeker' Pattern A: evictedSaint, Sheb, Stabby, S34N1C
(1) UF-A(A/T)R-41 'Saltstriker': 10ebbor10
(0) UF-ATR41 A  "Firefly":

Aircraft
(3) UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast": Azzuro, Piratejoe, Powder Miner
(4) UFAF-F-41 Lightning Streak: Madman198237, Zanzetkuken, Jilladilla, NUKE9.13
(1) UFAF-HF41-W 'Strife': Lightforger
(0) UFAF-JF-41 'Sobriety' Pattern A
(0) UFAF-SHB-41 "Hammer of Forenia"

Tank
(3) UF-MT-41 'Demolisher': Taricus, Kashyyk, NAV
UF-HT-41 "Apocalypse"
Pattern A: 0
Pattern B: 0
Pattern C: 0
Pattern D: 0
Pattern E: 0
Pattern F: 0

Radar
(2) RDN-41-3 "DEADLIEST RAY": RAM, SMMI
(0) UFS-41-W 'Virgil':

Other
(0) Ana-G.A.P.-1941-D.F.A. Kriegblitz antimateriel rifle: 0
(0) UF-ERA-41 "Blood Eagle":

[10ebbor10]

Missile/Rocket
(4) UF-ATGM-41 Saltseeker' Pattern A: evictedSaint, Sheb, Stabby, S34N1C
(0) UF-A(A/T)R-41 'Saltstriker':
(0) UF-ATR41 A  "Firefly":

Aircraft
(3) UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast": Azzuro, Piratejoe, Powder Miner
(5) UFAF-F-41 Lightning Streak: Madman198237, Zanzetkuken, Jilladilla, NUKE9.13, 10ebbor10
(1) UFAF-HF41-W 'Strife': Lightforger
(0) UFAF-JF-41 'Sobriety' Pattern A
(0) UFAF-SHB-41 "Hammer of Forenia"

Tank
(3) UF-MT-41 'Demolisher': Taricus, Kashyyk, NAV
UF-HT-41 "Apocalypse"
Pattern A: 0
Pattern B: 0
Pattern C: 0
Pattern D: 0
Pattern E: 0
Pattern F: 0

Radar
(2) RDN-41-3 "DEADLIEST RAY": RAM, SMMI
(0) UFS-41-W 'Virgil':

Other
(0) Ana-G.A.P.-1941-D.F.A. Kriegblitz antimateriel rifle: 0
(0) UF-ERA-41 "Blood Eagle":

[piratejoe]

Missile/Rocket
(4) UF-ATGM-41 Saltseeker' Pattern A: evictedSaint, Sheb, Stabby, S34N1C
(0) UF-A(A/T)R-41 'Saltstriker':
(0) UF-ATR41 A  "Firefly":

Aircraft
(3) UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast": Azzuro, Powder Miner
(5) UFAF-F-41 Lightning Streak: Madman198237, Zanzetkuken, Jilladilla, NUKE9.13, 10ebbor10, Piratejoe
(1) UFAF-HF41-W 'Strife': Lightforger
(0) UFAF-JF-41 'Sobriety' Pattern A
(0) UFAF-SHB-41 "Hammer of Forenia"

Tank
(3) UF-MT-41 'Demolisher': Taricus, Kashyyk, NAV
UF-HT-41 "Apocalypse"
Pattern A: 0
Pattern B: 0
Pattern C: 0
Pattern D: 0
Pattern E: 0
Pattern F: 0

Radar
(2) RDN-41-3 "DEADLIEST RAY": RAM, SMMI
(0) UFS-41-W 'Virgil':

Other
(0) Ana-G.A.P.-1941-D.F.A. Kriegblitz antimateriel rifle: 0
(0) UF-ERA-41 "Blood Eagle":

Since Turbohaast isnt going to win...

[Jilladilla]

Missile/Rocket
(4) UF-ATGM-41 Saltseeker' Pattern A: evictedSaint, Sheb, Stabby, S34N1C
(0) UF-A(A/T)R-41 'Saltstriker':
(0) UF-ATR41 A  "Firefly":

Aircraft
(2) UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast": Azzuro, Powder Miner
(6) UFAF-F-41 Lightning Streak: Madman198237, Zanzetkuken, Jilladilla, NUKE9.13, 10ebbor10, Piratejoe
(1) UFAF-HF41-W 'Strife': Lightforger
(0) UFAF-JF-41 'Sobriety' Pattern A
(0) UFAF-SHB-41 "Hammer of Forenia"

Tank
(3) UF-MT-41 'Demolisher': Taricus, Kashyyk, NAV
UF-HT-41 "Apocalypse"
Pattern A: 0
Pattern B: 0
Pattern C: 0
Pattern D: 0
Pattern E: 0
Pattern F: 0

Radar
(2) RDN-41-3 "DEADLIEST RAY": RAM, SMMI
(0) UFS-41-W 'Virgil':

Other
(0) Ana-G.A.P.-1941-D.F.A. Kriegblitz antimateriel rifle: 0
(0) UF-ERA-41 "Blood Eagle":

Corrected vote numbers

[andrea]

Missile/Rocket
(4) UF-ATGM-41 Saltseeker' Pattern A: evictedSaint, Sheb, Stabby, S34N1C
(0) UF-A(A/T)R-41 'Saltstriker':
(0) UF-ATR41 A  "Firefly":

Aircraft
(2) UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast": Azzuro, Powder Miner
(7) UFAF-F-41 Lightning Streak: Madman198237, Zanzetkuken, Jilladilla, NUKE9.13, 10ebbor10, Piratejoe, Andrea
(1) UFAF-HF41-W 'Strife': Lightforger
(0) UFAF-JF-41 'Sobriety' Pattern A
(0) UFAF-SHB-41 "Hammer of Forenia"

Tank
(3) UF-MT-41 'Demolisher': Taricus, Kashyyk, NAV
UF-HT-41 "Apocalypse"
Pattern A: 0
Pattern B: 0
Pattern C: 0
Pattern D: 0
Pattern E: 0
Pattern F: 0

Radar
(2) RDN-41-3 "DEADLIEST RAY": RAM, SMMI
(0) UFS-41-W 'Virgil':

Other
(0) Ana-G.A.P.-1941-D.F.A. Kriegblitz antimateriel rifle: 0
(0) UF-ERA-41 "Blood Eagle":

[Azzuro]

If the Lightning Streak does win, Cannala is basically guaranteed to design their own turbofan engined jet fighter next turn as well. Here's why that's bad for us.

Quick recap: we introduced the Tbird, Cannala reacted next turn by making the Spearhead. In terms of actual design the Tbird is slightly superior, mainly because the Cannalans weighed down their air superiority fighter with too much armament. It's important to note that the actual jet engine tech of the two were on par, after accounting for our extra revision spent on it and the Cannalan experience with the Bull's turboshaft engine. The situation as it stands today (both fighters being equally costly) is that we have slight design advantage+Magic advantage.

Let's say we roll out the Lightning this coming turn, gaining (more) air superiority and pushing them back a square. Yay. (We could have done that with Turbohaast too). Next turn, they introduce Super Spearhead, their own turbofan engine fighter. Its engine performance will be on par with the Lightning's turbofans, considering it's both our first forays into turbofan tech. The Cannalans will not be so stupid as to commit the same mistake twice of over-arming fighters, meaning it's down to luck of the roll as to which design is better. Assuming both roll the same, we would have gone from design+Magic advantage to just Magic advantage, which is a definite downgrade.

To sum it up, the status quo fighter design-wise is already in our favor. If we want to mix it up with a new fighter, it should definitely, absolutely be better than anything the Cannalans can put out in a single turn. The way to do that is incremental design, get the Turbohaast for the turbofan engine first before the Future Jet. Even if they are tipped off and we both go for fighter next turn, ours will be better because of turbofan experience from Turbohaast.

And as a final closer, the Cannalans are still sitting on a Research Credit. They are not averse to saving it for a rainy (lightningy?) day. You are basically betting 100% that they will spend it this turn and that we will roll higher on our jet than they will roll on their jet, because if they don't, Super Spearhead will trash the Lightning so hard we're gonna need Magic to save us.

[10ebbor10]

I'm pretty darn certain we do not have a slight design advantage. Canalla's jet is indeed heavily armed, but that heavy armament let's it blam bombers easily. We're flying a lot of bombers.

If anything, theirs may be slightly better because of that.

Should also be noted that we have more experience with jet engines than they do. Canalla focused all but one of their jet design actions on turboshafts, which don't have all that much in common with plane-based jet engines. Meanwhile, we focused primarily on our actual jet engine, with a side dash on turboprops.

[NUKE9.13]

Now that the Saltseeker isn't winning, I'm actually going to swap my vote over to radar.

Missile/Rocket
(4) UF-ATGM-41 Saltseeker' Pattern A: evictedSaint, Sheb, Stabby, S34N1C
(0) UF-A(A/T)R-41 'Saltstriker':
(0) UF-ATR41 A  "Firefly":

Aircraft
(2) UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast": Azzuro, Powder Miner
(6) UFAF-F-41 Lightning Streak: Madman198237, Zanzetkuken, Jilladilla,  10ebbor10, Piratejoe, Andrea
(1) UFAF-HF41-W 'Strife': Lightforger
(0) UFAF-JF-41 'Sobriety' Pattern A
(0) UFAF-SHB-41 "Hammer of Forenia"

Tank
(3) UF-MT-41 'Demolisher': Taricus, Kashyyk, NAV
UF-HT-41 "Apocalypse"
Pattern A: 0
Pattern B: 0
Pattern C: 0
Pattern D: 0
Pattern E: 0
Pattern F: 0

Radar
(3) RDN-41-3 "DEADLIEST RAY": RAM, SMMI, NUKE9.13
(0) UFS-41-W 'Virgil':

Other
(0) Ana-G.A.P.-1941-D.F.A. Kriegblitz antimateriel rifle: 0
(0) UF-ERA-41 "Blood Eagle":

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

If the Lightning Streak does win, Cannala is basically guaranteed to design their own turbofan engined jet fighter next turn as well. Here's why that's bad for us.

Quick recap: we introduced the Tbird, Cannala reacted next turn by making the Spearhead. In terms of actual design the Tbird is slightly superior, mainly because the Cannalans weighed down their air superiority fighter with too much armament. It's important to note that the actual jet engine tech of the two were on par, after accounting for our extra revision spent on it and the Cannalan experience with the Bull's turboshaft engine. The situation as it stands today (both fighters being equally costly) is that we have slight design advantage+Magic advantage.

Let's say we roll out the Lightning this coming turn, gaining (more) air superiority and pushing them back a square. Yay. (We could have done that with Turbohaast too). Next turn, they introduce Super Spearhead, their own turbofan engine fighter. Its engine performance will be on par with the Lightning's turbofans, considering it's both our first forays into turbofan tech. The Cannalans will not be so stupid as to commit the same mistake twice of over-arming fighters, meaning it's down to luck of the roll as to which design is better. Assuming both roll the same, we would have gone from design+Magic advantage to just Magic advantage, which is a definite downgrade.

To sum it up, the status quo fighter design-wise is already in our favor. If we want to mix it up with a new fighter, it should definitely, absolutely be better than anything the Cannalans can put out in a single turn. The way to do that is incremental design, get the Turbohaast for the turbofan engine first before the Future Jet. Even if they are tipped off and we both go for fighter next turn, ours will be better because of turbofan experience from Turbohaast.

And as a final closer, the Cannalans are still sitting on a Research Credit. They are not averse to saving it for a rainy (lightningy?) day. You are basically betting 100% that they will spend it this turn and that we will roll higher on our jet than they will roll on their jet, because if they don't, Super Spearhead will trash the Lightning so hard we're gonna need Magic to save us.

Ah, good sir, you are forgetting something.  Their jet fighters are reliant upon Titanium, so with the boost of sea advantage through the cheapening Cataphract, the stealing of the Victoria (and it likely being cheaper for us), and with the introduction of parachutes to land, we can force the pricing of several designs to jump, most importantly, the jets you are so worried about.

[Madman198237]

Are we?

Well then, guess what the only thing we could do in reply would be?

Oh yeah, build another jet fighter. Except with the Turbohaast, we'd ONLY have the engine tech. Not a slightly uprated cannon, not extra experience in extreme maneuverability and high speeds.

Building this fighter could conceivably allow us to go supersonic in one more jet aircraft.

And heck, if you're so certain they'll blow their research credit on it, then we design TWO jet aircraft regardless, one this turn, one the next, and suddenly *we're* two turns ahead and they can't catch up as easily.

[evictedSaint]

Considering anti-shipping missiles accounted for at least 31 of Germany's ship-kills during ww2 (including the Italian Battleship Roma) I think its a valid route to go down, since we're up against a navy-centric enemy.  It's a powerful tech; much like the Wasp Nest, it just needs the first step.  We have enough of the preliminary tech we have a reasonable chance of pulling it off.  We have the prerequisites, the strategic reason, and the tactical reason to do it now.

[10ebbor10]

Torpedoes account for far, far more naval kills.

Especially since we know that :
a) The torpedoes work
b) They're very effective

On a side note, there are no anti shipping missiles among the designs.

[Azzuro]

I'm pretty darn certain we do not have a slight design advantage. Canalla's jet is indeed heavily armed, but that heavy armament let's it blam bombers easily. We're flying a lot of bombers.

If anything, theirs may be slightly better.

Should also be noted that we have more experience with jet engines than they do. Canalla focused all but one of their jet design actions on turboshafts, which don't have much in common with jet engines. Meanwhile, we focussed primarily on our actual jet engine, with a side dash on turboprops, which share much similarity.

I should clarify that I meant better in an air superiority role. The Spearhead being a better interceptor only mattered when it was cheaper than Tbird, now that both are same cost, Tbirds blam enough Spearheads that they dont get to blam our bombers.

Regarding engines, both Tbird and Spearhead are similar performance going by the BR The Spearhead is carrying heavier armament uet goes only slightly slower, which I interpret as both engines being about the same.

If the Lightning Streak does win, Cannala is basically guaranteed to design their own turbofan engined jet fighter next turn as well. Here's why that's bad for us.

Quick recap: we introduced the Tbird, Cannala reacted next turn by making the Spearhead. In terms of actual design the Tbird is slightly superior, mainly because the Cannalans weighed down their air superiority fighter with too much armament. It's important to note that the actual jet engine tech of the two were on par, after accounting for our extra revision spent on it and the Cannalan experience with the Bull's turboshaft engine. The situation as it stands today (both fighters being equally costly) is that we have slight design advantage+Magic advantage.

Let's say we roll out the Lightning this coming turn, gaining (more) air superiority and pushing them back a square. Yay. (We could have done that with Turbohaast too). Next turn, they introduce Super Spearhead, their own turbofan engine fighter. Its engine performance will be on par with the Lightning's turbofans, considering it's both our first forays into turbofan tech. The Cannalans will not be so stupid as to commit the same mistake twice of over-arming fighters, meaning it's down to luck of the roll as to which design is better. Assuming both roll the same, we would have gone from design+Magic advantage to just Magic advantage, which is a definite downgrade.

To sum it up, the status quo fighter design-wise is already in our favor. If we want to mix it up with a new fighter, it should definitely, absolutely be better than anything the Cannalans can put out in a single turn. The way to do that is incremental design, get the Turbohaast for the turbofan engine first before the Future Jet. Even if they are tipped off and we both go for fighter next turn, ours will be better because of turbofan experience from Turbohaast.

And as a final closer, the Cannalans are still sitting on a Research Credit. They are not averse to saving it for a rainy (lightningy?) day. You are basically betting 100% that they will spend it this turn and that we will roll higher on our jet than they will roll on their jet, because if they don't, Super Spearhead will trash the Lightning so hard we're gonna need Magic to save us.

Ah, good sir, you are forgetting something.  Their jet fighters are reliant upon Titanium, so with the boost of sea advantage through the cheapening Cataphract, the stealing of the Victoria (and it likely being cheaper for us), and with the introduction of parachutes to land, we can force the pricing of several designs to jump, most importantly, the jets you are so worried about.

So, uh, now we're hoping to reduce them to no Naval Advantage and land in the Tundra without actual landers? That's...optimistic

[andrea]

If the plan is to land on tundra we should get a lander, not parachutes.