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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Azzuro]

You know what gets us turbofan engines as well? Turbohaast! Seriously, the Future Jet design should be focused entirely on aerodynamics, engine performance and speed, not breaking into a new type of turbine engines. Turbohaast allows us to get turbofan engine experience for Future Jet, which should also have afterburners for even more speed in combat.

To those who say the Turbohaast autocannon is too ambitious, it's the same RPM and 50% larger calibre, which should only be Normal difficulty according to the OP. The wings are literally nearly the most simple wings possible, and should offer better low speed performance and manueverability than the Haast's elliptical wing planform, which is really more for high-speed (piston) fighters. The only major improvement is the aforementioned turbofans, which should be a Hard difficulty.

Seriously, the Turbohaast will set us up better for Future Jet next turn.

[Madman198237]

That's the thing, the design doesn't break into any new fields of tech. There is a Trivial firepower upgrade with 25mms, and perhaps Normal, AT WORST, advancements in aerodynamics and whatever. The problem with a Turbohaast is that it's not doing anything that needs to be done better. The Haast is a great attacker, and it's the cart before the horse to put out a new ground-attacker when we could achieve the same goals, AND MORE, by taking complete air superiority. Not to mention, a turbofan is better for a jet fighter. Also, thanks for reminding me about what ELSE I forgot (What a surprise...), I'm going to go mention an afterburner.

So this meets roughly the same (If not a bit less) difficulty level as a Turbohaast, which should really be done AFTER the lighter jet fighter, because then you could go for 3 tonnes of bombs with a massive engine instead of just 2 tonnes, not to mention being able to do more fun things with it instead of all work going to the engine.

[Azzuro]

Uh, I think the turbofan engines do count as a new field of tech. Or perhaps the Tbird and Ice Giant should have been Normal difficulty?

Anyway, we can get both turbofans and upgrade our ground-attack in one design. Otherwise, the Cannalans will be able to put up a nearly equal fighter again, considering that its both our first turbofan design, so the gap in turbofan tech isn't that much, if at all. We can put further improvements like said afterburner on the Future Jet design, to ensure it absolutely outpeforms their own turbofan engine.

Seriously, what's better in terms of difficulty, going for a Hard Turbohaast then Hard Future Jet, or going for a Very Hard Future Jet then a Normal Turbohaast? PS, we don't have a Research Credit.

[Madman198237]

I phrased that poorly. I meant that the design, WITHOUT turbofans, did almost nothing.

Yes, but by that logic, they can just catch up, they'll be one turn behind for two turns....if they choose to counter. The best bet is to throw this out NOW. As you've been saying (I think? I don't think I've gotten confused as to who's who yet) for a few turns, "What if they do a new jet now?". Well, we'd have a hard counter to that by rolling out the jet now.

By the way, if the Turbohaast is Hard, this will be Hard. Because it is basically Trivial (25% increase in autocannon size is all that adds definite difficulty), since I know nothing about how hard Sensei will rate "Extreme aerodynamic improvements like we've done on every other aircraft so far". As far as we know, this would be a Normal design, as would the Turbohaast (Two tonnes of bombs) without the turbofan. However, since difficulty isn't strictly additive, adding the turbofans ought to leave both aircraft at a Hard difficulty.

The Turbohaast is a fun idea, for sure. But fun is not what we need. The Haast does it's job well, and by unleashing a better fighter NOW, we let the Haast do it's job. Basically, we've seen in the past that having aerial dominance is incredibly beneficial, much more so, in my opinion, than rolling out a new attacker.

Ultimately, both should help. But I believe that the jet fighter will help more. It leads to fewer helicopter drop-offs (Not, you know, that their useless Twinblade is anything but, uh, useless), fewer hostile bombing runs, MORE friendly bombing runs, less hostile CAS, etc.

[somemildmanneredidiot]

(0) Ana-G.A.P.-1941-D.F.A. Kriegblitz antimateriel rifle: 0
(3) UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast": Azzuro, Piratejoe, Powder Miner
(0) UF-ERA-41 "Blood Eagle":
(3) UF-ATGM-41 Saltseeker' Pattern A: evictedSaint, Sheb, Stabby
(0) UFS-41-W 'Virgil':
(2) RDN-41-3 "DEADLIEST RAY": RAM, SMMI
(4) UF-MT-41 'Demolisher': Taricus, Kashyyk, Jilladilla, NAV
UF-HT-41 "Apocalypse"
Pattern A: 0
Pattern B: 0
Pattern C: 0
Pattern D: 0
Pattern E: 0
Pattern F: 0
(1) UF-A(A/T)R-41 'Saltstriker': 10ebbor10
(0) UF-ATR41 A  "Firefly":
(2) UFAF-HF41-W 'Strife': Lightforger, Zanzetkuken
(0) UFAF-JF-41 'Sobriety' Pattern A
(1) UFAF-F-41 Lightning Streak: Madman198237

Cave Magnets = Signficantly Better And Smaller Radar = Better Ship Radar And Plane Mounted Radar/Proxy Fuses/Tech Advantage

The math says that with the Expensive Vicky, Cheap Cat, and space left in the Jungle, we have the time to tech up a bit to get into some fantastic advances with other designs.

[Madman198237]

Once again: I must disagree. Losing more ground in the jungle gets us DANGEROUSLY close to the desert and the desert oil. We don't want to do that, especially as we start using more and more expensive jet aircraft.

The radar does not help ground forces enough. Turbohaast likewise. The jet fighter gives us all the functionality of the Haast and all our other bombers, because having extreme air superiority gives a massive boost to all air-based forces. We've seen it before in other turns.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

(0) Ana-G.A.P.-1941-D.F.A. Kriegblitz antimateriel rifle: 0
(3) UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast": Azzuro, Piratejoe, Powder Miner
(0) UF-ERA-41 "Blood Eagle":
(3) UF-ATGM-41 Saltseeker' Pattern A: evictedSaint, Sheb, Stabby
(0) UFS-41-W 'Virgil':
(2) RDN-41-3 "DEADLIEST RAY": RAM, SMMI
(4) UF-MT-41 'Demolisher': Taricus, Kashyyk, Jilladilla, NAV
UF-HT-41 "Apocalypse"
Pattern A: 0
Pattern B: 0
Pattern C: 0
Pattern D: 0
Pattern E: 0
Pattern F: 0
(1) UF-A(A/T)R-41 'Saltstriker': 10ebbor10
(0) UF-ATR41 A  "Firefly":
(1) UFAF-HF41-W 'Strife': Lightforger
(0) UFAF-JF-41 'Sobriety' Pattern A
(2) UFAF-F-41 Lightning Streak: Madman198237, Zanzetkuken
(0) UFAF-SHB-41 "Hammer of Forenia"

Switched up vote again, updated the list to include the Lightning's link, and added the Hammer of Forenia.

[Madman198237]

Thanks for setting up that link.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Missile/Rocket
(3) UF-ATGM-41 Saltseeker' Pattern A: evictedSaint, Sheb, Stabby
(1) UF-A(A/T)R-41 'Saltstriker': 10ebbor10
(0) UF-ATR41 A  "Firefly":

Aircraft
(3) UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast": Azzuro, Piratejoe, Powder Miner
(2) UFAF-F-41 Lightning Streak: Madman198237, Zanzetkuken
(1) UFAF-HF41-W 'Strife': Lightforger
(0) UFAF-JF-41 'Sobriety' Pattern A
(0) UFAF-SHB-41 "Hammer of Forenia"

Tank
(4) UF-MT-41 'Demolisher': Taricus, Kashyyk, Jilladilla, NAV
UF-HT-41 "Apocalypse"
Pattern A: 0
Pattern B: 0
Pattern C: 0
Pattern D: 0
Pattern E: 0
Pattern F: 0

Radar
(2) RDN-41-3 "DEADLIEST RAY": RAM, SMMI
(0) UFS-41-W 'Virgil':

Other
(0) Ana-G.A.P.-1941-D.F.A. Kriegblitz antimateriel rifle: 0
(0) UF-ERA-41 "Blood Eagle":

Got bored, organized it so we have an idea of what type of things are available for voting and what is the highest voted in each category.  'Cause why not?

[Jilladilla]

Missile/Rocket
(3) UF-ATGM-41 Saltseeker' Pattern A: evictedSaint, Sheb, Stabby
(1) UF-A(A/T)R-41 'Saltstriker': 10ebbor10
(0) UF-ATR41 A  "Firefly":

Aircraft
(3) UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast": Azzuro, Piratejoe, Powder Miner
(3) UFAF-F-41 Lightning Streak: Madman198237, Zanzetkuken, Jilladilla
(1) UFAF-HF41-W 'Strife': Lightforger
(0) UFAF-JF-41 'Sobriety' Pattern A
(0) UFAF-SHB-41 "Hammer of Forenia"

Tank
(3) UF-MT-41 'Demolisher': Taricus, Kashyyk, NAV
UF-HT-41 "Apocalypse"
Pattern A: 0
Pattern B: 0
Pattern C: 0
Pattern D: 0
Pattern E: 0
Pattern F: 0

Radar
(2) RDN-41-3 "DEADLIEST RAY": RAM, SMMI
(0) UFS-41-W 'Virgil':

Other
(0) Ana-G.A.P.-1941-D.F.A. Kriegblitz antimateriel rifle: 0
(0) UF-ERA-41 "Blood Eagle":

Switched to the Lightning Streak, to preempt any potential Cannalan better-fighter/them potentially picking oil and getting cheap Spearheads (They have to know we're getting cheap Thunderbirds+cheaper Zheleznogorods right?)
Also, wouldn't letting our existing Haasts more or less roam freely have more or less the same effect of getting a better Haast? (That effect being more bombs on target?)

...Do we have a list of what Cannalan things become cheaper depending on their ore/oil choice? I'll compile one in a bit if we don't.

[somemildmanneredidiot]

It's been mentioned on Discord once or twice, a list on here would be appreciated. There's a spread sheet on the discord that calculates expenses that should help.

[S34N1C]

Missile/Rocket
(4) UF-ATGM-41 Saltseeker' Pattern A: evictedSaint, Sheb, Stabby, S34N1C
(1) UF-A(A/T)R-41 'Saltstriker': 10ebbor10
(0) UF-ATR41 A  "Firefly":

Aircraft
(3) UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast": Azzuro, Piratejoe, Powder Miner
(3) UFAF-F-41 Lightning Streak: Madman198237, Zanzetkuken, Jilladilla
(1) UFAF-HF41-W 'Strife': Lightforger
(0) UFAF-JF-41 'Sobriety' Pattern A
(0) UFAF-SHB-41 "Hammer of Forenia"

Tank
(3) UF-MT-41 'Demolisher': Taricus, Kashyyk, NAV
UF-HT-41 "Apocalypse"
Pattern A: 0
Pattern B: 0
Pattern C: 0
Pattern D: 0
Pattern E: 0
Pattern F: 0

Radar
(2) RDN-41-3 "DEADLIEST RAY": RAM, SMMI
(0) UFS-41-W 'Virgil':

Other
(0) Ana-G.A.P.-1941-D.F.A. Kriegblitz antimateriel rifle: 0
(0) UF-ERA-41 "Blood Eagle":

[Jilladilla]

Ok, I went ahead and made a list... Tell me if I missed anything? (I'll join up on the Discord, my user name is Nemonole... In fact that's the alias I go by nowadays, Bay12 predates that though.)

Cannalan Ore/Oil Cost adjustments
Either Choice:
MXA1 'Bull' V.Exp.->Exp
Khorne V.Exp.->Exp

Ore:
Kalmar Exp->Cheap
Seaweed AA Cruiser Exp->Cheap
M2A1 w/Daybreaker Exp->Cheap
M2A2 Exp->Cheap

Oil:
Spearhead Exp->Cheap
Falcon Exp->Cheap

[Madman198237]

Thank you, Jilla.

I point out that, regardless of the choice they make, we need to help the Jungle. If their aircraft go cheap, we won't gain air superiority. If their M2A1/M2A2's go cheap, we want to counter their armor advantage. Also, the Bull goes Expensive regardless. It might be a second-rate armored vehicle from the 1960s, but it IS a vehicle from the 1960s, and we can either counter it (Build better vehicle to modern standards, i.e., composite armor, turboshaft engine, and autoloading main gun) or we can just use our existing aircraft and blow it up from the sky.

And if we want to keep the naval pressure on, a new jet fighter is the way to do it. It will likely allow us a successful landing on Mt. Konstantin's lane.

[Jilladilla]

And if we want to keep the naval pressure on, a new jet fighter is the way to do it. It will likely allow us a successful landing on Mt. Konstantin's lane.

It's also important to note that their Bull and Spearhead need Titanium, if we disrupt that they'll go back to very expensive!