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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Happerry]

0 RDN-39-3 "DEADLIEST RAY" :
0 UFA-SAB-41 Speedy Altitude Bomber :
0 UFN-AIPS-41 Submarine :
0 UFSS-41-A "Siren" :
1 UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast" : Azzuro
1 UF-GEV-41 "Ekaterina" : RAM
1 UFS-CL-41 Pattern A 'Cavalier' Cruiser :Taricus
1 UFS-CL-41 Pattern B 'Knight' Cruiser : 10ebbor10
0 UFS-CL-41 Pattern C 'Paladin' Cruiser :
3 UFS-CA-41 Pattern D 'Winged Hussar' Cruiser : Zanzetkuken the Great, Piratejoe, NUKE9.13
6 UFN-CA-41 Pattern E 'Cataphract' Cruiser : Madman198237, evictedSaint, Andrea, NAV, Wolfhunter, Happerry
1 UFN-CA-41 Pattern F 'Lancer' Cruiser : Kashyyk

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Here's a thought for long term strategy: don't make there be a long term.  Do everything in our power to just Blitz for their capital.

This Turn: Cruiser and Targetting Computers, knock down the sea to a managable level and boost arty and tanks to recapture Jungle.
Next Turn: Landing Craft - Tank (if Jungle captured)/Better Jet (if Jungle not captured) and a Autocannon/Machine Gun revision, be able to reach their shores and boost our planes
Two Turns: Landing Craft - Tank (if Jungle captured)/Heavy Tank and Reckless to Heavy Bomber (if we've landed), counter their Bull and rain hell on all their shit.
Three Turns: Best Jet we can damn well make and use the frame of one of our tanks to make a self-propelled gun using one of the Cruiser's guns, boost air to support the Blitz.
Four Plus: Whatever the Blitz needs at that point.

Canalla has a quite large advantage in tech right now.  Let's aim to end the game before they really make us hurt.  Stop for nothing.

Edit: Essentially, we be a rocket.  Our target is their capital, and nothing should stop us.

Edit2: Call it Plan 'Put a Rocket on the War Machine'

[Azzuro]

More seriously, I don't think a cruiser will win us back the Jungle, which should be our absolute first priority at this stage. They have already landed, reducing their naval advantage will not help us on solid ground, doubly so as naval advantage doesn't affect troop numbers in the top lane. There is the argument that this will help us against their naval gunfire when we push back to the Jungle coast, but then better attack aircraft would also do the same and play to our bonus.

I am not against ship designs on principle, but I feel that we should really really focus on getting back the Jungle first before going on a naval designing spree. Getting back that ore will give us the long awaited dream of Cheap Thunderbirds and Expensive Z carriers, which unfortunately wasn't realised due to the unfortunate 1 and will also help redress the cheaper Cannalan Santos carrier in the naval arena.

The Turbohaast pushes them back in the Jungle, while also laying the groundwork for a more advanced jet fighter in the future through its turbofan engine technology, addressing the short endurance issue of the Thunderbird.

On another note, I believe the Cannalans will definitely spend their design not on a ship, but on a ground/air design to help them push another bit of Jungle. Of which, I think the most reasonable option for them is a newer jet fighter (yes, I see you rolling your eyes already). But they already have the (small) armour advantage, so taking the air advantage is the next logical step, and depriving us of Haast, Firecracker bombing, paratrooper insertion etc is by far the most effective use of a single design, given how much we rely on various forms of air attack to complement our ground. Moreover, the Cannalans now have a Research Credit, perfect to put to use designing a more advanced jet with the luxury of getting a 5 or 6. Voting for the Turbohaast again sets us up to counter that by making a more advanced jet fighter next turn.

Just going to quote this again while I'm sitting over in the Turbohaast corner by myself. Friendly reminder that the Cannalan armoured advantage will grow even more next turn, as their Type 36 Tank Destroyer with 100mm cannon (capable of penetrating a Salamander's armour) is now cheaper, while more importantly our T2 Breakers and Salamanders go up to Expensive again. Even if their design this turn utterly fails, I'd still give them even odds to capture another piece of Jungle. I really don't see how a new cruiser will help us gain back the Jungle, which should really be our top priority now.

Anyway, for my two cents on the cruisers, I think the Cataphract is the better one. It's a tad too ambitious, but we need a well rounded ship if we're going to commit to conventional navy instead of Asymmetric Naval Warfare.

[Powder Miner]

0 RDN-39-3 "DEADLIEST RAY" :
0 UFA-SAB-41 Speedy Altitude Bomber :
0 UFN-AIPS-41 Submarine :
0 UFSS-41-A "Siren" :
1 UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast" : Azzuro
1 UF-GEV-41 "Ekaterina" : RAM
2 UFS-CL-41 Pattern A 'Cavalier' Cruiser : Wolfhunter, Taricus
1 UFS-CL-41 Pattern B 'Knight' Cruiser : 10ebbor10
0 UFS-CL-41 Pattern C 'Paladin' Cruiser :
3 UFS-CA-41 Pattern D 'Winged Hussar' Cruiser : Zanzetkuken the Great, Piratejoe, NUKE9.13
5 UFN-CA-41 Pattern E 'Cataphract' Cruiser : Madman198237, evictedSaint, Andrea, NAV, Powder Miner
1 UFN-CA-41 Pattern F 'Lancer' Cruiser : Kashyyk

Massive Naval Advantage is so ridiculously bad a penalty (it WORSENS the ground combat disadvantage of their major naval advantage) that we will lose on all fronts except the jungle if we allow it to continue, and that includes our homeland.

[evictedSaint]

I think we've lost too much momentum to win, personally.  We're struggling to build a navy and they're developing futuristic attack helicopters.

But if we want to keep going, then it's pretty obvious we need to actually spend the next few turns building a navy; that means developing a cruiser, a decent destroyer, maybe even a submarine to get a Minor naval disadvantage.  We'll lose the mountain in that time, probably, and their attack helicopters and cheaper armor will let them push further into the jungle, but a better Haast won't fix that.  The Haast is doing its job and spending a revision fixing something that's not broken isn't a great idea - especially not when we have a fast-launching carrier that doesn't launch fast, a cheap carrier that doesn't carry anything useful, a destroyer that's yet to destroy anything, and a cruiser that will undoubtably need a revision here soon.  We're just going to have to accept that we're going to lose a lot before we're in a position to do anything about it.

[10ebbor10]

Yeah, honestly, I can't see a path to victory.

We build a ship,  the enemy builds a better one. Their ships do not become outdated. The Kraken, made in 1916, is still a dangerous threat. Their torpedos, using technology the world abandonned in 1890, are still effective. The Khorne, build almost a decade ago, might as well be unassaillable.

Anything new that we design is worse than the old stuff they already have, anything new they design is something we can never replicate.

[RAM]

Which is why we need superweapons...

[evictedSaint]

...we could spend this design developing uranium enrichment, actually...

[Powder Miner]

Anything new that we design is worse than the old stuff they already have, anything new they design is something we can never replicate.

ain't what sensei says

[10ebbor10]

It's a hyperbole, but the sentiment is not wrong.

Sensei said that the Archer is worse than the Canallan designs they made more than a decade ago.

He has confirmed that Canalla gets major design bonus because of their naval experiences. The conclusions from that are logical.

Canalla gets better designs because of their existing naval experience, meaning that they can do things we can't. Given that the Z-class was already pushing the edge of our naval capabilities, it means that we simply can't build a battleship like they did.

[Powder Miner]

I asked him whether we could design a cruiser that could outperform the khorne and he said it wouldn't be unreasonable

[10ebbor10]

Really?

That would pleasantly surprise me, but past experience tells me it's not going to happen.

[Khan Boyzitbig]

Why would it? We literally haven't tried to match cannala ever.

[evictedSaint]

Why would it? We literally haven't tried to match cannala ever.

Aside from the radar, 300 mm cannon, radar targeting systems, the Z, the cheap jet, and the Archer, you're right.

[10ebbor10]

The reason why is because I highly suspect that designing an equal to the Khorne will be a very hard project.

Very hard:
A very hard design is something which world powers struggled with for years to get right, like radar or jet engines. It represents the very cutting edge of technology. You should expect to fail the first time you attempt something like this, but it can be worthwhile nonetheless. A revision which attempts to make a leap forward in technology might be Very Hard.
1: The design fails to yield a useable example. Your designers simply couldn't get anything produced in time.
2: The design suffers a serious bug or bugs which make it nearly useless. For example, a rocket explodes on the launch pad.
3: The design suffers severe bugs which might prevent it from being very useful, but a working example is produced. At this level of success or higher, attempting another similar design might be Hard rather than Very Hard.
4: The design suffers moderate to severe bugs.
5: The design succeeds, maybe with a minor to moderate bug.
6: The design succeeds.

The Z-class carrier rolled a 5.

That meant it lost it rapid launch capability and constantly damages it planes.

So, anything but a 6 means we fail and can not match the Khorne.