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[TheBiggerFish]

What the heck.

That's not even where I was going with that question.

[Hapah]

PFW

What the heck.

That's not even where I was going with that question.

Then clear up where you were going.

[TheBiggerFish]

@Hapah:  ':\
Nah.

[Gentlefish]

TBF: We just started and you're kind of harshing the mellow with all of this antagonizing of Roo. And now this 'nah' business with Hapah? This is Mafia, please explain your actions and clear up what you meant with your question. Then I will consider removing my vote.

Roo: "just how it felt" doesn't cut it in mafia. We need your evidence. We're not going to do the legwork for you when you say "look for the evidence". Give us your evidence and link to the posts so we know the context of the evidence. Consider this your warning.

Hapah: What do you think of this situation between TBF and roo?

Webadict: Right now? I'd cop TBF. It's RVS and they're being super aggressive against one other player. To be fair, at this point that other player is making me wonder as well, but they came off the handle at the start of the game with an antagonistic line of questioning.

[TheBiggerFish]

I would like to explain my question, but at this point, I don't think it would be a good idea to do so, considering Hapah's being kind of weirdly interested in what I hope to get out of my question.  Call it paranoia, but this is Mafia after all.

I have had multiple bad experiences with roo.  It's mostly that I suspect he will keep being a bad player.

[Hapah]

Off of work and writing up a good old-fashioned wall of text now, sit tight.

[roo]

@Gentle fisher there is nothing more to say as it was how it felt. I didn't say look for the evidence I was merely answering the question posed. That is where I stand with my reads. I can't hold your hand and give you my brain I can only tell you what I'm thinking.

[TheBiggerFish]

@Gentlefish: Do you see what I mean?

[Gentlefish]

@Gentlefish: Do you see what I mean?

...I see your point now.

@Gentle fisher there is nothing more to say as it was how it felt. I didn't say look for the evidence I was merely answering the question posed. That is where I stand with my reads. I can't hold your hand and give you my brain I can only tell you what I'm thinking.

roo, there's plenty you can do. You can, while linking the posts you're referring to, walk us through your thought process that got us there. "I feel this way" isn't enough. You gotta show, not tell. You hardly answered the question beyond being like "yep!". We need more than that if we're looking for scum. We need a "Yep! Here's why!". Why did Hapah read as buddying? I only asked a few people a question myself. Was I buddying too, or was I not because I didn't ask you anything specifically?

[Hapah]

It's good to be back! First the questions, then the soapbox.

Everyone: What question would you least like to be asked in this RVS, and what would you answer to it?

Hapah: What's your favorite RVS question and what is your answer to it?

This is going to sound very odd, but the answer to these is the same: the "What's your favorite color/food/whatever". I'll expand on that a bit at the end.

Others: What's your previous mafia experience been like? What do you look for in other people's actions? Failing that, what made you want to give it a shot?

I actually got started in a Starcraft II custom game (which was basically just Mafia) and a Gary's mod thing (which was different but the general idea was the same) at about the same time. I liked both, I was already lurking on B12 because I liked DF, and so I ended up here!

@Everyone: Who would you inspect as a Cop and why?

I've been chewing on this for a while, and it's a little more complicated than you'd think. I would probably look at "strong" players later in the game (doubly so if the other strong folks have been murdered), and people that I'm kinda on my own in suspecting. If there are two suspects and one of them gets lynched, the other one will probably sort itself out the next day or catch a Vig bullet or something. But if I've got a scummy read on someone and nobody else does, I'd like to be able to confirm that one way or the other. A lot of it depends on what you know of the game setup, if anything, y'know?

Wubadub: What about you?

Hapah: What do you think of this situation between TBF and roo?

Right now I think roo is fine; I'm on the fence about TBF.

I'm not an IC, but I've been around a while, and I'm gonna give you lot a little unsolicited advise (it ties well into the favorite RVS question above). One of the single most important things you can ask in Mafia is "Why?" . And I don't mean directly just asking people why (though you sometimes have to, sometimes in more words and sometimes in less), but figuring out why people are asking the questions they are. Also, it can be very helpful to just pretend or assume that someone is going to ask you "Why?" after you ask a question or vote someone. Great example already:

Spoiler: Roo posts (click to show/hide)

Hapah super duper serious vote btw.

Don't do this, especially not the second bit. You get called on it and have to reply.

@ TBF
His post felt fake, trying to fit in. And deliberately talked to only me and you. Trying to be our budddies and ignored the actual game. His question doesn't lead anywhere and neither does his answer toward your first question.

-snip-

You want the "why" of your question or vote, the reasoning behind it, to be available if people put a little thought into it. The more you have to defend yourself on the fly the more chances for something to slip, or for your foot to find your way into your mouth. Best to be as clear the first time around as possible.

Regarding the RVS question above, it ties into the "why". I've never heard a good reason or explanation on how someone could divine something about my alignment based on whether I prefer baked or mashed potatoes. In my eyes, someone asking that type of question generally means one of three things:

1.) Lazy Townie. If there's no way they can care about your response, they had no reason to ask the question besides wanting to look active.
2.) Lazy Scum. When you already know who isn't scum, you are just kinda going through the motions if you want to take it easy (good scum may try to suss out roles or behavior patterns).
3.) Total newbie. They just don't know any better or how to scumhunt (though truth be told I barely know how to on Day 1 as well).

Happily, the response to 1 and 2 is the same: stick their neck in a noose until they convince you it doesn't belong there. Either you get a lazy townie engaged (win), or you lynch some scum (win), or you lynch a lazy townie (unfortunate, but I'd lynch lazy town over active town anyway). And for the newbies, well...you help them as best you can, but this is Mafia and you're gonna kill innocent folk sometimes.

TBF: I want you to explain where you were going with that question you asked roo, and I want you to explain why you just dropped the question instead of getting the answer you were looking for or pushing him on it. If there is some context that you think I might be missing, please link it. Because, as it stands:

Spoiler: The irony is almost palpable (click to show/hide)

....
roo: Are you going to continue being incomprehensible?

@Gentlefish:
Look for past games with roo in them.

He basically just flings his vote at somebody and expects us to read his mind, from what I recall of his play.

PFW

What the heck.

That's not even where I was going with that question.

Then clear up where you were going.

@Hapah:  ':\
Nah.

[roo]

Yeah his second sentence third word line j paragraph two after the second comma.

I felt how I felt dude not sure what you think I'm keeping hidden. You might feel differently toward hapahs two posts but thats fine. We're all different people. You can choose to say I'm keeping something from you even though I have been fairly straightforward and have not shyed away from the game. Simply because you can't understand my line of thinking doesn't make me scum. I'm not hiding anything nor being difficult. It was just how I felt reading his two posts.

You were very  quick to change your vote. Or have I committed the bigger crime by giving you my thoughts. Would you rather I had kept them to myself?

I did raise an eyebrow at your parroting exactly what I said except in reverse order, and made a mental note of it, but decided I wanted to see what happened with hapah first.

[Gentlefish]

Yeah his second sentence third word line j paragraph two after the second comma.

What is the point of this snark? It doesn't add anything to the game, other than making you look bad.

I felt how I felt dude not sure what you think I'm keeping hidden. You might feel differently toward hapahs two posts but thats fine. We're all different people. You can choose to say I'm keeping something from you even though I have been fairly straightforward and have not shyed away from the game. Simply because you can't understand my line of thinking doesn't make me scum. I'm not hiding anything nor being difficult. It was just how I felt reading his two posts.

What I would like you to do is elaborate why you feel like two posts is enough to call for buddying. I would love to understand your line of thinking, you know. You just gotta draw it for us. Talk it through!

You were very  quick to change your vote. Or have I committed the bigger crime by giving you my thoughts. Would you rather I had kept them to myself?

I was quick to change my vote. I gave you a warning and you chide me for not being able to see exactly what you see when you don't talk it out for me. It's better to have lots to say than nothing to say. You've committed the crime by telling us only your conclusion and not persuading us of your view beforehand.

I did raise an eyebrow at your parroting exactly what I said except in reverse order, and made a mental note of it, but decided I wanted to see what happened with hapah first.

What parroting where? Can you quote the posts for me? I dove into this and looked for questions directed at me before making my first post. It was only after my first post replying to everybody that I went back and really read through everything.

Don't get me wrong, TBF is still a little curious, but right now it feel like you're being intentionally vague and snapping at me when I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from. That's why I'm voting to lynch you right now.

[roo]

Eh. You're not understanding me at all which makes explaining difficult. I'll try my best to explain. I'm not chiding you For anything I said you may feel differently towards his posts this is a game filled with different people. I can't scum hunt like you do gentlefish as I am not you. Nor can I expect you to see what I see as you are not me. I can only tell you what I see and how I felt as a townie towards another persons post. The snide remark is simply based on your trying to impose your playstyle on me. What do you think gentlefish am I town or scum based on our past interactions? and why. It seems you are following your emotions much more than I am since you are simply upset that I won't acquiesce to your request at least that's how it looks from my end.

PFW

TDS: I think you've gotta bump the day end back a bit, looks like you counted weekend time.

BigFish: It's been a long time, I honestly have a hard time remembering last time I was scum (there was LNCP's Mein Kampf game but it was a little unusual, to put it mildly). Other folks with longer memories might be able to give you some leads on that, I'll dig through my post history after work and see if I can find something interesting.

PFW

roo: I gather that you've played before from BigFish and Tir, and I gather that it didn't go well or you dropped out or something. What happened in those games? What did you learn, and what can you do to make this go-around better?

Hapah talks to tbf after tbf mentions him and is hostile towards me, but hapah himself does not pose an rvs question to anyone and instead chooses to talk to me about past games encouraging me to post about my past games and talk about nothing. He shifts his momentum with tbf while trying to encourage me to talk. I felt that he was trying to be buddies with someone. Like I said it was just a feeling. And like I said before

"Just say what you're thinking and lay it out there; more discussion helps town."

....
roo: Are you going to continue being incomprehensible?

Hapah: I've seen you around but never been in a game of Mafia with you.  What are some examples of your town and scum play?

Hah??? The game just started. What on earth are you talking about, Pray tell.

4mask: Don't plan on it I'm dead on deadweek so we should be okay. What brings you back into beginner's mafia? I'm too lazy to see if you're an IC right now.


Fish Bigger Than Me: Pray tell, what do you mean by roo being incomprehensible? Can you point me to something?

So gentlefish who is scum and why? Why is tbf a little curious. Does that make him scum?

[doll]

Well, it looks like there's no need for me to bring the smokescreen of inanity and bullshit this time.
Truly, it has already been brought.

Actually it's not that bad, outside of TBF.

Spoiler: For TheBiggerFish (click to show/hide)

I have had multiple bad experiences with roo.  It's mostly that I suspect he will keep being a bad player.

I have had multiple bad experiences with you. In this game, you had two post which contained any legitimate content; an RVS vote on a player you thought was weak, and asking roo what was meant by 'contrived'.

I'm not going to try to make a case on you by quoting your posts and picking out key content, because it'd just be a series of empty quote boxes followed by me saying 'actually contribute to the daygame'.
So I'll just say:
Actually contribute to the daygame.

Make a case on a player other than roo. Interact with a player other than roo.
'Make a case on' means 'try to lynch', by the way. I mean sure, we're probably lynching between you are roo. But that's because we're probably lynching you, not because we're probably lynching roo.
Right now, you've drawn the spotlight onto anti-town behavior. Thats fine, there aren't easy scum floating about. However, the most egrarious case of anti-town behavior is yours. You need to contribute something if you don't want to be lynched.

Spoiler: RVS Questions (click to show/hide)

roo

hapah for his contrived entrance instead of tbf for his robust entrance.

What about his entrance was contrived?
TheBiggerFish
It's 3 man lylo. You're the last mafia, with two unclaimed players. The cop is dead, but nobody has seen the jailkeeper. Do you claim a role? What role do you claim?
Hapah
It's Day2. A scum player was lynched D1. A single player claims cop D2. Are they the cop? When would it be acceptable to lynch them? Do you pay any attention to their reports?
Johiah
It's Day1. The player being lynched claims cop. Do you change your vote?
Gentelfish
It's Day1. I claim Jailkeeper out of the blue. You are the Jailkeeper. Do you say anything?
Doubloon-Seven
It's Day2. You are the cop, but the player you inspected last night died. Another player claims cop in the thread D2, with an innocent result on a third, unrelated player. Do you counterclaim?
Webadict
If you could daykill me specifically right now, would you?
4maskwolf
As you can see, I am rolefishing.
What's your role this game?
Tiruin
Are scum going to win this game?
doll

Spoiler: Answers to RVS Questions (click to show/hide)

@Everyone: Who would you inspect as a Cop and why?

Whichever of Webadict/4maskwolf/Hapah I expect is least likely to be night killed. Generally, this means the most suspicious of these players.
I would do this because besides presumably being stronger players than the others here (making them less likely to slip as scum), these players have the most conventional playstyles and can be appealed to in fairly simple ways (if town), Webadict and 4maskwolf in particular having thought processes very similar to my own in some regards.

doll: Given your seeming high level of experience from outside of Bay12, I'm surprised you chose to sign up as a regular player in a BM.  Do you not feel you have enough experience with the Bay12 meta?

I've spent more time playing mafia here than anywhere else, I don't know why you'd think I've got a lot of experience.
I'm in a BM because it's a fairly standard setup which emphasizes the daygame, which is what I want right now, and I feel entitled to it because I (still) haven't rolled scum on B12.

Everyone: What question would you least like to be asked in this RVS, and what would you answer to it?

Probably this one, because it looks and smells like a legitimate question but it's lazy bullshit you're throwing out in lieu of doing any actual work to hunt scum. This is a problem, because lazy bullshit which doesn't contribute to the daygame is such an ingrained part of your meta that it's par for the course.
Fortunately, weak daygames (which render you unreadable) are a good excuse for lynches, as you can see from all the players voting you.

Others: What's your previous mafia experience been like?

I've played a few games, read quite a many more.

General questions only serve to draw attention to yourself. Unless you have a legitimate reason for doing so (e.g. you want everyone to make a weak case on you so you can brush it off and look townish, or because you're an IC and want to teach people how to play) there's no real reason for them in RVS. You'll notice that even highly pertinent general questions in other games often go unanswered.

[roo]

Contrived in that his posts felt forcefull. They felt off. It felt like Hapah wanted to say something but didn't know what to say and jumped at the opportunity presented by TBF. Although this isn't alignment indicative. It could just be nerves. But my gut says scum lean. Of course it could be a false positive that he posted from work and didn't want to get caught. But I'll stick with my gut for now. As 1 hapah has not done anything particularly towny and 2 is going for the proverbial low hanging fruit.

 That being said, Doll do you have anything to offer on the posts so far? Why continue rvs if there is plenty to talk about now is what I feel.

Any reads on the players that have posted?


Whats more Doll are you saying that TBF is most likely town by calling him anti-town?
-----------------–-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So far:
Gentle, hapah, and Doll going after TBF. Although Doll is the only one that gave him a lecture and called him out to do better that feels like town points to me? but I don't dismiss the possibility of a bluff with the question thrown to tiruin. Nor the self vote. #weird. Whilst hapah and gentlefish made mostly votes to "pressure" persons into answering. Tbh I'm not certain about the validity of their line of questioning nor how their questions will Give them insight into someones alignment. TBF has no need to lie when he decides to answer or not answer nor did I for that matter.

I am curious what Gentle has to say. I am even more curious about the quick vote hop. I don't see why he couldn't pursue both avenues of questioning. If anything doesn't make sense from a townie perspective to me is why gentle switched from TBF who wasn't explaining his actions to roo. Although that could just be my bias. From his responses I seemed to have made some sort of sin in not answering how he wanted me to answer. Damned if I do damned if I don't. Is that considered woe is me? I hope I'm not lynched for that.

In truth nothing has actually happened apart from the people with the highest post count being questioned the most go figure.

Also gentlefish how did TBF go from "harshing the mellow" to "a little curious"? igmeoy

As for tbf I'm leaning town on him. Inb4 quote posts and explain why.