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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 394014 times)

10ebbor10

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1125 on: April 28, 2017, 03:24:13 am »

We still don't know how their anti-magic stuff works, right? Because as far as I know, our anti-magic just "absorbs" magic, and since that's the same thing our anti-magic bombs use, so it makes since our charms stop our bombs. But I would assume their anti-magic fields are still based on magic. Evicted was somewhat vague when he said they didn't work with anti-magic, and I didn't see anything noting interactions between the bombs and their anti-magic in last combat report, so I guess we don't know?

I'm near 100% certain that Moskurgian anti-magic deactivates bombs. The GM wouldn't have been so menacing about it if it didn't.

Quote
Again, I'd like to emphasize that managing forces equipped with cheap anti-magic bombs is explicitly not a problem.

It's nice if a design doesn't explicitedly sabotage ourselves, but it also has to be usefull.

Let's look at the events thst happenned.

Quote
Their mages can't even cast to try and stop us as our Anti-Mage snipers are continuing to use their explosive arrows. They blast small holes in Moskurg barricades, and their mages are forced to stop casting and hunker down lest their cover be blown to shreds. 

The arrows fully supress the enemy mages. What do you think more arrows is going to accomplish?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 03:50:48 am by 10ebbor10 »
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Roboson

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1126 on: April 28, 2017, 03:30:11 am »

We still don't know how their anti-magic stuff works, right? Because as far as I know, our anti-magic just "absorbs" magic, and since that's the same thing our anti-magic bombs use, so it makes since our charms stop our bombs. But I would assume their anti-magic fields are still based on magic. Evicted was somewhat vague when he said they didn't work with anti-magic, and I didn't see anything noting interactions between the bombs and their anti-magic in last combat report, so I guess we don't know?

I'm near 100% certain that Moskurgian anti-magic deactivates bombs. The GM wouldn't have been so menacing about it if it didn't.

Yeah, I wonder why the GM was so frustrated.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 03:33:08 am by Roboson »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1127 on: April 28, 2017, 03:31:43 am »

Subtle.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 03:35:27 am by 10ebbor10 »
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Roboson

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1128 on: April 28, 2017, 03:45:36 am »

Credit where credit is due.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1129 on: April 28, 2017, 03:49:37 am »

That would lie with Chiefwaffles and whomever else on their side.

My point has always been that it would explode even within anti-magic fields. He argued the opposite, and he won.

In any case, the GM did say that people should stop talking about that, so I doubt you're endearing yourself now by bringing it up again and again.
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Roboson

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1130 on: April 28, 2017, 03:52:42 am »

The issue really  isn't the dispute, it's how it's handled. But I digress, it is over now.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1131 on: April 28, 2017, 04:01:26 am »

We still don't know how their anti-magic stuff works, right? Because as far as I know, our anti-magic just "absorbs" magic, and since that's the same thing our anti-magic bombs use, so it makes since our charms stop our bombs. But I would assume their anti-magic fields are still based on magic. Evicted was somewhat vague when he said they didn't work with anti-magic, and I didn't see anything noting interactions between the bombs and their anti-magic in last combat report, so I guess we don't know?

I'm near 100% certain that Moskurgian anti-magic deactivates bombs. The GM wouldn't have been so menacing about it if it didn't.
Great evidence there.

Quote
Again, I'd like to emphasize that managing forces equipped with cheap anti-magic bombs is explicitly not a problem.

It's nice if a design doesn't explicitedly sabotage ourselves, but it also has to be
Has to be what? It doesn't hurt us to use it.

Let's look at the events thst happenned.

Quote
Their mages can't even cast to try and stop us as our Anti-Mage snipers are continuing to use their explosive arrows. They blast small holes in Moskurg barricades, and their mages are forced to stop casting and hunker down lest their cover be blown to shreds. 

The arrows fully supress the enemy mages. What do you think more arrows is going to accomplish?
Oh, sorry. I didn't realize our single anti-mage unit was killing every mage. I should had realized all those spells they had were actually just complete coincidence. There's no way that the report was only talking about certain portion of their mages I mean, I'm sorry. I forgot that our tiny anti-mage unit rapid fires arrows at every single mage on the battlefield. Everyone knows every single event documented in the report is actually what happened 100% of the time, after all.

Bolded text mine because I'm on mobile and don't want to have to break up he quote. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 04:21:02 am by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Roboson

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1132 on: April 28, 2017, 04:11:35 am »

ChiefWaffles, 10ebbor10

This is getting out of hand.  Continue via pm's if you'd like, but unless you're strictly discussing what to do this design  phase I want you to stop bickering.  It's not constructive and I'm tired of seeing it.

So tired.
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RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1133 on: April 28, 2017, 04:13:37 am »

Quote
but they are still at least two turns from making a push and if we really strangle the jungle this turn then we can focus on the sea next.

Capture is imminent.
Huh?
I see
Quote
Arstotzka gains the jungle. If they hold it next year, they may exploit it for resources.
...
Neither side makes coastal gains in the Western Sea.
...
Western Jungle: 4/4 Arstotzka, 0/4 Moskurg
...
Western Sea: Disputed
I think that, with Allmytreacle out, they will probably not retake ground in the Jungle, even though that catapult will stop breaking down this turn. So if the sea is about to fall then sure, I will put it into longboats, or wizards of some denomination... because losing the sea would legitimately be bad. But last I paid attention it was basically stalled at half-all and since then it was all a vague "we can't catch them, but they aren't doing much" standoff.

A new though in favour of longboats is that they are(were? did we whine that to death? I think we probably whined it to death, not that I am complaining if we did. "bonus if you win but you can't win" is a really bitter thing to swallow if you don't know about it and immediately dump 50-odd revisions into boats to get your payday...) But we could revise them into slow, clumsy cargo chuggers while our warships have minimal crews and supplies...


the recurve bow, a shortbow that fires with the strength of a longbow, though not quite as much range.  More importantly, its shorter profile means that it can be wielded effectively on horseback
I believe that the recurve bow has shorter range. Though I would certainly believe that the bombs re not as good as normal arrows, they don't seem blatantly incompetent though, so they should still be at least competitive.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 04:17:55 am by RAM »
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1134 on: April 28, 2017, 04:28:18 am »

EDIT: Rewrote to be more precise.

My problem is with Ebbor's apparent unrelenting hatred of anti-magic bombs. They're useful. You can see them being useful in the combat report. Thinking it's better to use the credit on longboats is one thing, but Ebbor has been constantly trying to say that their successes don't really count because of various silly reasons. 
Please, Ebbor. Just accent that anti-magic bombs are useful. You don't have to love them. Just stop attacking them for existing please.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 04:34:05 am by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

10ebbor10

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1135 on: April 28, 2017, 04:33:37 am »

Being snide is not going to help, and it's exactly that behaviour that prevented a decent debate last time.

Let's go by the facts.

Spoiler: Long (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 04:46:04 am by 10ebbor10 »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1136 on: April 28, 2017, 04:34:52 am »

I accidentally ninja edited you there, Ebbor. Not going to bother reading your post, but just letting you know.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

10ebbor10

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1137 on: April 28, 2017, 04:38:58 am »

I accidentally ninja edited you there, Ebbor. Not going to bother reading your post, but just letting you know.

Yeah, I know you don't, which is exactly why arguing with you is pointless.

You don't read the other side's point. You assume you know what point they're making, and attack that..
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 04:52:30 am by 10ebbor10 »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1138 on: April 28, 2017, 04:45:14 am »

Quote
revision
4 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant
0 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines:
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
1 -(10ebbor10) Anti Lucky strike charms

Credit
1 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
2 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : 10ebbor10, Roboson
1 - (RAM) Myark: RAM

There, with that hopefully over, we can get back to discussion actual stuff.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #1139 on: April 28, 2017, 04:49:11 am »

You know what? I'll bite. And I'll just go ahead and ignore that little personal attack you posted there.
Being snide is not going to help, and it's exactly that behaviour that prevented a decent debate last time.

Let's go by the facts.


Quote
Great evidence there.

There are 4 good reasons to assume it does :
1) Occam's razor m
2) Precautionary principle
3) Menacing GM.

Your argument relies on hope that Moskurgian antimagic is both different and can not be easily revised, based on no evidence at all.
My argument is based on the fact that we have different anti-magic techniques and the only logical way for anti-magic bombs to not detonate is that the magic was "absorbed" in the same way as our charms. It's simple.


Caution suggests we don't make that assumption.

Quote
Has to be what? It doesn't hurt us to use it.

Manipulating quotes to cut out words is dishonest.

And it does hurt us. It costs us a credit that we can use better.
I accidentally cut that out. But it's not like I cut out a critical point. I'll address it now. Cheap long boats have a small chance of letting us keep the sea disputed for one more phase when we don't need to.

Quote
Oh, sorry. I didn't realize our single anti-mage unit was killing every mage. I should had realized all those spells they had were actually just complete coincidence. There's no way that the report was only talking about certai portion of the mission. I mean, I'm sorry. I forgot that our tiny anti-mage unit rapid fires arrows at every single mage on the battlefield

Yes, it refers to the part of the mission where our archers are actually in range of the enemy mages.

At any other point, anti-magic arrows are useless.
You mean when our single anti-mage unit was in range of some of their mages. Look at the quote I included that you cut out. "Manipulating quotes to cut out words is dishonest." Mages are spread out. It's not like our anti-mage unit went into combat with their mage unit. That's not how battles work.

Quote
The melees have likewise increased in lethality.  Before the combat even begins a two meter long spear falls out of the sky, impaling one of our commanders through his breastplate.  As our men scramble for cover more fall from above, hitting with the same uncanny accuracy of Moskurg archers.  We lose a significant number of mages and commanders before the battle even begins, but after a while the spears taper off and stop all together.


Beyond arrow range, enemy mages cast freely.

Quote
At medium range, however, the battle turns in our favor. Moskurg arrows are still utterly useless against Arstotzkan plate and gambeson, but our arrows and newer fireballs hit with devestating effect.  It's as if every one of our mages was equipped with our original fireball spell, and each blast wipes out squads at a time.  We have fewer mages here due to the earlier sniping, but they're still working to devestating effect.  Their mages can't even cast to try and stop us as our Anti-Mage snipers are continuing to use their explosive arrows. They blast small holes in Moskurg barricades, and their mages are forced to stop casting and hunker down lest their cover be blown to shreds. 

Mages disabled.

This suggests clearly arrows are used to saturation.

Like how this quote suggests they're used to saturation?
Quote
He points out that if the antimagic bomb arrows were cheaper, our entire archer force could use them.  Also, why do they need to require magic to activate? Why not give them a timer instead?

I'll stop defending my actions when you stop wrongly attacking them. I also like the "See! I stopped it! I'm the good guy thing!"
If you want to stop it, stop attacking. All I'm doing is defending my points.

EDIT: If you really care, please just PM me instead of posting it here. And yes. This is an edit.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 04:58:20 am by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!
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