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[randomgenericusername]

((Well, I really want to save up to buy the special glowstone gear like the ember tunic and roaring axe, but there's also the problem about how much I can carry as a character. While the group as a whole might have a lot of expensive ores in the wheelbarrows, there's also a problem with "how much of this ore belongs to me?" "Who deserves to get an expensive item the most?" "Who should get the opal for selling this carcass, whoever dealt the killing blow or whoever did the most damage?"))

[Sir Knight]

((Well, I really want to save up to buy the special glowstone gear like the ember tunic and roaring axe, but there's also the problem about how much I can carry as a character. While the group as a whole might have a lot of expensive ores in the wheelbarrows, there's also a problem with "how much of this ore belongs to me?" "Who deserves to get an expensive item the most?" "Who should get the opal for selling this carcass, whoever dealt the killing blow or whoever did the most damage?"))

I believe that one's on me.  It's my job both to flood you with danger and give you the opportunity to advance your character.  Stick around, and there'll be tons to kill and sell.  Remember to mine everything in sight, and there's no question it's yours, too.

Now, would a much-more-convenient-than-lugging-around-kilograms-of-opal monetary system help with that?  Perhaps, because then the proposed "give 20 opal to everyone on the team" idea (for the current biggest carcass) would mean everyone gets the cash and doesn't have to worry about being overburdened.

I'm kinda talking myself into this.  Like I said, it's something I can tie into the game world/plot.  I was wondering if it would be necessary, but, well, it's looking like the answer is "yes."

[Dustan Hache]

And this is also why I've been encouraging--nay, expecting--people to do things like hold onto mined ores which (so far) are worth 2, 4, or 5 times as much as their weight.  And why I even handed the players some nice lightweight etherstone bars when you were paid for your last adventure.

And why I keep saying "Please, please buy something!  A sword weighs so much less than the loot you're carrying!"

It's like the humans down here are trading inanimate non-milk-producing cattle for all their goods.  Perhaps this inversion of your expectations that "money should be easy" works better in my head than otherwise.  But, just looking at modern fantasy games, if people really did lug around 1,000 solid gold coins to buy their medieval armor, they'd find their money pouches in the same situation.

Which is where denomination comes into play, and also the exact reason why I chose to buy glowstone.
Because it is so hard AND risky to carry a giant coinpouch around, there are three, sometimes four denominations of coins in a sizable number of fantasy games: Copper/bronze,Silver,Gold, and occasionally platinum. Each one was defined as being worth roughly 100 of the tier below it.
This meant that for situations where you would be using pocket change (like we are with this opal crisis) you would only be carrying one or two coins that you would need to pay with as opposed to 5 pounds of copper. Of course, realism takes this a step further with paper money, but we aren't really accounting for inflation now are we?

[Starver]

(((Triple parenthises because this is an aside to the game aside-aside...     - In a Mud I have frequented, it is amazing the amount of time I've had about 25% of my encumbrance taken up by my equipment (backpacks, pouches, belt loops included), maybe 5% by loot yet to be sold off, 15% with second-tier cash, 30% with third-tier cash and 40% with loose change of the fourth tier cash, the latter three not yet banked because bank-counters are rarer than general stores (and the top-tier coins not being worth the risk of carting around, taken from banks only when needed for special purposes) and you really have to balance the bank charges against the advantage of loads of spare copper coins during the inevitable equipment repair phase...  All solutions are non-optimal, when balancing grinding in lucrative hunting grounds against difficult foes (at 115% encumbrance!) vs just cashing in small change all the time and losing 20% of all the meagre gains you can still find...  )))

[Sir Knight]

Because it is so hard AND risky to carry a giant coinpouch around, there are three, sometimes four denominations of coins in a sizable number of fantasy games: Copper/bronze,Silver,Gold, and occasionally platinum. Each one was defined as being worth roughly 100 of the tier below it.
This meant that for situations where you would be using pocket change (like we are with this opal crisis) you would only be carrying one or two coins that you would need to pay with as opposed to 5 pounds of copper. Of course, realism takes this a step further with paper money, but we aren't really accounting for inflation now are we?

Well, at least in original D&D, the value was 10 times as much (sometimes 5 times), not 100.  If other games have changed it to 100 these days . . . then I guess that's a demonstration of a different sort of inflation.  But none of this counters your point.

Using a special mineral as a higher-denomination coin would be reasonable, except for how all such goodies currently have in-game utility.  It's great that players are thinking about selling goodies at Rock Bottom in order to unlock other buyables; I'd rather keep that mechanic, and not allow the players to bypass it by buying raw materials from town just so they can sell them back to town.

Ideally, the best system would be one that makes money easier to handle, while players can store special minerals and such in your lockbox to sell whenever you want to unlock something.  I can only expect the player to juggle so many mechanics at once; maybe the heavy weight of money has to go.  (Well, not "go," but be managed better.)

Spoiler: Oh, did I make that clear to new players?  Let me totally overexplain, but hide it in a spoiler so no one has to have their eyes glaze over (click to show/hide)

Right, right, should say this: you only need to sell the Rock Bottom people raw materials if you want to make a related purchase at that time.  Like, you can see the phasestrike javelin here in the Halfway House: it's here because of random chance, and you don't know when one will be back in stock.  You might want it, but you might not be able to afford it at this time.

But it's made out of etherstone.  So you get some etherstone, and hold onto it, storing it in your lockbox.  You keep everything you've stored in a lockbox even if your character dies and you have to start again with someone new.  Later, when you have enough money, you can sell the etherstone in Rock Bottom to unlock a new phasestrike javelin for you to buy.  You can see the ingredients in the special equipment list.

Same thing goes for the roaring axe that you mentioned, Tohil (randomgenericusername).  In this case, it has two ingredients, glowstone and bindstone.  Either will do.  So, since you have some bindstone, just hold onto it until you've earned the cash to buy the thing.

And I'll do my best so that this convoluted mechanic is the only thing limiting play.  Sorry about the weight issue.

. . . and you really have to balance the bank charges against the advantage of loads of spare copper coins during the inevitable equipment repair phase...  All solutions are non-optimal, when balancing grinding in lucrative hunting grounds against difficult foes (at 115% encumbrance!) vs just cashing in small change all the time and losing 20% of all the meagre gains you can still find...

20% bank charges on every transaction?  The people at the Halfway House want to exchange your loot at 80% value, which is basically my game's equivalent; but you'll see I'm not making it a guaranteed fee.  My thing is that I don't even know if I've got a decent economy in the first place, so I'm far from issues of "ugh, the players have too much money, I need ways to rob them without them complaining too loudly."  (I've followed game economies and I've seen the crazy things that happen.)

So I'm planning an update.  Hopefully you'll like it.  I welcome further comments before I get there.

[Dustan Hache]

Worst case, you could always introduce other gemstones or materials for use as currency

[Starver]

20% bank charges on every transaction?

I'm not entirely sure it's 20%, nor that I have been nominally operating at 115% capacity (i.e. into stat penalty zone), because I've not been on that MUD for a while and I've got things set up to alert me when I'm approaching/over my own 'acceptable' edge limit.

Checking the wiki for the MUD for the latest details, it's 2-15% skimmed off of deposits, depending on which bank (and in some cases which branch of the bank) you're trying to use.  The locality of the branches differ in ease of access to various 'hunting grounds', depending where in the world one is, plus the version of currency they'll accept. Depositing coins of one region into that region's counter(s) makes available cash of any other region that also has a branch of that bank (once you travel there!), for international commerce - no exchange fee other than the deposit one that hits you even if you put in 1000(+fee) 'pennies' (loads of encumbrance!) and then straight away take out a single 10 ($/£/¥/€)-equivalent coin at the same branch (barely any weight at all).

(Or you can use a separately maintained Money Changer, installation, converting certain foreign currencies to/from the local one, but I've avoided them. Apparently they currently charge from 2% to 55% fee on those transactions.)

But that's just what it's like in a game that is 25-30 years old, been continuously developed all the while by many player-creators (it used to use brass coins up to platinum, before converting it all into more than a dozen thematically esoteric currencies to match the wide world that it now spreads over) and so is loads more complicated in all respects. Not something I'm demanding of every fantasy world that I'm participating in, don't worry... 

[Sir Knight]

Checking the wiki for the MUD for the latest details, it's 2-15% skimmed off of deposits, depending on which bank (and in some cases which branch of the bank) you're trying to use.  The locality of the branches differ in ease of access to various 'hunting grounds', depending where in the world one is, plus the version of currency they'll accept. Depositing coins of one region into that region's counter(s) makes available cash of any other region that also has a branch of that bank (once you travel there!), for international commerce - no exchange fee other than the deposit one that hits you even if you put in 1000(+fee) 'pennies' (loads of encumbrance!) and then straight away take out a single 10 ($/£/¥/€)-equivalent coin at the same branch (barely any weight at all).

(Ahh, yes, I've heard that MUD's manage to get systems this detailed.  That's the fine thing about a computer game: just ask the computer to do it.  There's the idea of games going from mechanics to dynamics to aesthetics: the calculations are the mechanics that give rise to the dynamics, and so the game couldn't work without them, but you the player get to work on the level of the dynamics to form your strategies.  Very different from a tabletop game, where the players must be able to work with the raw mechanics--and vice versa.)

So I've got an update mostly ready.  I'll go do something else, rest my brain, and post later.  I hope it works for you all.

[Sir Knight]

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Let's see . . . I believe I've incorporated everything you folks told me.  I'm running with Tohil (randomgenericusername)'s suggestion to sell the hide off of the rock hydra before it can rot, because 1) that's a good idea, 2) it lets me distribute a little wealth to handle Dwain (Starver)'s slight deficit and round up a bunch of those stupid 0.5 opal weights you people will get left over (argh, uneven totals!), and 3) it gives me an in-world excuse to lighten the money load problem.  I'd been thinking about this solution since I invented the society down here; looks like it's needed.

(Tell me if I got anyone's purchases wrong.  I haven't actually copied anything into your character sheets online yet.)

It's a hearty afternoon of discussion and money.  Dustan, Alyssa, John, and Bob make straightforward exchanges.

Louis makes a trade for that damaged backpack and moves the contents therein to the less-damaged one.  While doing so, you get out your rock hydra tooth and think about ways to thread it into a necklace.  The trader offers that if you'll forget about the change, he'll gladly string it up on a little bit of surface thread.  "Better than carrying around little opal chips to cut ya."

Well, with that settled, you leave him to drill a tiny hole and promptly get distracted.  Ooh, nice pool of water.  Time for a swim.

Dwain gets most of the way through a purchase and comes up a little short.  However, Tohil, who's in the middle of a different exchange, has an idea: the rock hydra is already most of the way in pieces, so why not sell off the skin for tanning and just cart away a wheelbarrow of bones to bring to town?  By Dwain's calculation, a little of that would be his fair share, and that resolves the problem.

Though it does raise the question of whether it's more efficient to carry around heavy chunks of opal--apparently the only form of money down here--or the looted and hunted goodies themselves.  At this, Etrigan nods and brings you together at a table with another gentleman.  "We're from the Cornu family," he explains, "the same ones who run the whole stupid bank in Rock Bottom.  I try to stay away, but they're useful at times."

The gentleman gets out parchment--irreplaceable parchment from the surface.  Etrigan continues.  "Since it's us, we can write you a letter of credit for sums you trade in here.  Seal up the letter right and proper, and the bank back in Rock Bottom will give you what the Halfway House owes you.  The only limit is they prefer to issue credit in multiples of 10 opal, because that makes it easier to reuse the letters in their accounting without running out of parchment."

The gentleman works a piece of graphite in his hand.  "You know the family credit's good," he says.  "We run the whole stupid bank, after all."



There.  Why not recapitulate the history of paper money?  (I established a banking system months ago, and struggled for ages over just how much "credit" I wanted to be involved.  Plans evolve.)

Here are your current lists of goodies, post-purchases:

Spoiler: Everybody's salable stuff and inventory changes (click to show/hide)

Dustan (Dustan Hache)
--Waterskin (standing jellyfish leather): 1 opal
--Glowstone: 1x 4 kg rough stone, 16 opal
. . . You now have:
--Food, three days
--Opal: 1 kg loose currency (it should be only 0.5, but I'm giving extra from the sale of rock hydra hide because I hate those little fractions)

John (ziizo)
--Pick (iron): 12.5 opal
--Sickle (iron): 35 opal
. . . You now have:
--Food, three days
--(And as much water as you can carry)
--Opal: 1 kg loose currency (same rounding deal as above)

Alyssa Alpine (Rautherdir)
(It's iffy.  Do you want a sword?  You can get one.  But by your instruction, these first two entries should be transformed into 13.5 opal.)
--Damaged tunic (wall tiger leather): 10 opal
--Cultist hood (wall tiger leather): 3.5 opal
--Glowstone: 4x 4 kg rough stone, 16 opal each
--Workstone: 6 kg metal bars, 15 opal

Dwain (Starver)
--Waterskin (standing jellyfish leather): 1 opal
--Cultist hood (wall tiger leather): 3.5 opal
--Etherstone: 1 kg metal bars, 5 opal
. . . You now have:
--Fine tunic (wall tiger leather)
--(And water)
--(And no debt, because I'm going with transferring value from that rock hydra hide sale.)

Gary (Coolrune206)
--Mining helmet (iron): 3.5 opal

Bob (magmaholic)
. . . You now have:
--Waterskins: 3x (with one new one taken from the wheelbarrow)
--Ether cola (etherstone): 2x
--(And water in the remaining waterskin, the one you entered the underground carrying)
--Splitter wand (sparkstone, scaled turkey bone): 2x
--Opal: 5 kg loose currency (same rounding deal as above)

Louis (dustywayfarer)
--Iron: 3x 10 kg metal bars, 10 opal each
. . . You now have:
--(Changed your backpack)
--Sling (scaled turkey leather)
--Necklace (thread, rock hydra tooth)

Tohil (randomgenericusername)
--(I didn't sell the tunic (surface fabric); instead I tossed it into the wheelbarrow and sold a damaged leather tunic from it instead so you can retain fabric for bandages)
--Bindstone: 5x 5 kg rough stone, 10 opal each
. . . You now have:
--(A swapped-out waterskin arrangement)
--Sling (scaled turkey leather)
--Fire skull (glowstone, bug bat bird skull): 6x
--Opal: 6 kg loose currency (same rounding deal as above)

The second group's wheelbarrow
--Damaged tunic (wall tiger leather): 2x 10 opal each
--Waterskin (standing jellyfish leather): 4x 1 opal each
--Backpack (surface leather or scaled turkey leather): 2x 2.5 opal each
--Cultist hood (wall tiger leather): 3x 3.5 opal each
--Dagger (iron): 3x 6 opal each
--Iron: 1x 10 kg metal bars, 10 opal
--Coal: 1x 3 kg rough stone, 1 opal
--Opal: 2x 5 kg rough stone, 5 opal each
--Bindstone: 2x 5 kg rough stone, 10 opal each
--Scaled turkey: some bones and a piece of tanned hide, 4 opal in total
--Wall tiger leather: 5 opal
--Rock hydra leather: 3x 10 opal each

The third group's wheelbarrow
--Rock hydra: 90 kg pile of messy bones, 150 opal

And also
--Opal: 16 kg loose currency (after the sale of raw hide and some transfer of value)

And also
--Standing jellyfish: 40 kg carcass, 50 opal

Here's your current buying power:

Dustan (Dustan Hache): 18 opal
John (ziizo): 38.5 opal
Alyssa Alpine (Rautherdir): 92.5 opal (you wanted to make 13.5 in change, but the question of buying something is still in the air)
Dwain (Starver): 9.5 opal
Gary (Coolrune206): 3.5 opal (I know, I know: one day your shield will come)
Bob (magmaholic): 5 opal
Louis (dustywayfarer): 30 opal
Tohil (randomgenericusername): 50 opal
The second group's wheelbarrow: 137.5 opal
The third group's wheelbarrow: 150 opal (that's the rock hydra's bones)
Plus, there's 16 in leftover opal from selling raw hide
Plus, there's that standing jellyfish carcass: 50 opal

Cash in anything you want (probably all that junk from the hoarding wastrels), and I'll give you letters of credit at multiples of 10 opal.  We'll just totally let it blur when you're spending it in Rock Bottom.  This way the only otherwise-dead-weight in your inventory or the wheelbarrows will be less than 10 kg.  Does that sound like an okay solution?

[Rautherdir]

(After thinking it over, I'll get the upgraded sword. And I'll also offer to give my old one to any team-mate who is willing to help me pay for the new one.)

Switch to selling all of my salable goods, buy the Fine Iron sword.

[randomgenericusername]

((I wonder what are the sucker-faced freak like.))
Sell the carcass and keep any parts that will not rot because why not. Try to gather information regarding other sapient species or dangerous monsters we could meet in the caverns. What is a sucker-faced freak?

[Sir Knight]

(After thinking it over, I'll get the upgraded sword. And I'll also offer to give my old one to any team-mate who is willing to help me pay for the new one.)

Switch to selling all of my salable goods, buy the Fine Iron sword.

Cool, I've noted it.  People who don't mind giving up some loot (was there a plan for the iron bars being carried helpfully by Louis (dustywayfarer)?  I don't think so . . . ) might mention it, but I suspect that the old sword, being valuable, might have to be sold.  In general if people are up for cashing in all the junk for credit then I'll assign relevant bits to you.  As priority, if I can save your glowstone from sale so it can be used in the mines, I'll do that.

Sell the carcass and keep any parts that will not rot because why not.

I noted the rest of your post, but as for this part: is the team up for waiting around this area long enough to butcher the standing jellyfish?

I still await seeing what people think of the overall money/banking situation.

Oh, and:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GAME!

Yes indeed, one year ago today I first posted this "roguelike RTD RPG."  Perhaps it would have gone more smoothly/quickly if it were an actual computer roguelike, but I like to think I've been posting reasonably quickly.  157 updates in 365 days, almost all of those with a graphic.  16 characters, half alive, half gone.  97 recorded kills, 2 of them being other characters.  Oodles of mining and money that I'd have no way of remembering because this isn't actually a videogame.

Has it been fun?

[randomgenericusername]

Sell the carcass and keep any parts that will not rot because why not.

I noted the rest of your post, but as for this part: is the team up for waiting around this area long enough to butcher the standing jellyfish?

I still await seeing what people think of the overall money/banking situation.

I want to stay here and butcher it. I don't know about the rest of the team.

I think the only problem was the weight of currency, something that could be easily solved if we find the third wheelbarrow that was stolen.

Happy birthday, thread! This RTD has been definitely !!FUN!!

[dustywayfarer]

It's been fun; but I haven't been here for all of it. Perhaps eventually someone will comb through everything and write up a wiki for the ages.

Louis says, I'd like the sword Alyssa, would the three iron bars I have be enough or would you need a splitter wand or two as well?.

EDIT: I noticed my charsheet in the OP hasn't been updated. Might want to check the others as well.

[Sir Knight]

Oh, and about the standing jellyfish: spending the time to butcher it, and selling the otherwise-rottable meat and skin, will net you another 20 opal in value.  The remainder is in bones.

Louis says, I'd like the sword Alyssa, would the three iron bars I have be enough or would you need a splitter wand or two as well?.

EDIT: I noticed my charsheet in the OP hasn't been updated. Might want to check the others as well.

Indeed, I haven't updated any of the character sheets yet, as I know that there may be more changes incoming.  See the recent update for the changes until then.

And if you were to give up your splitter wands (both of the ones you were about to buy), it would help, yes.  But hopefully I can assign value from the wheelbarrow junk and save you those things.  (Mining tools are good for returning their own investment, after all.)  So I'm planning on that, and if people are cool with the "credit" system then I can finalize a lot more sales.