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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4180724 times)

martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53445 on: September 24, 2024, 08:22:17 am »

The US government has decided to ban the sale of foreign 'smart cars' using technology from 'countries of concern', like China and Russia.
Specifically, cars using technology that connects them to other devices, like the internet or other cars, will be banned.

The ban will come into effect for software in cars produced from 2027 onwards, and for cars as a whole starting 2030.
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53446 on: September 24, 2024, 08:44:04 am »

As a consumer I don't want that tech from any source. Did nobody learn the lessons about not networking all your transportation tech together from that great historical document Battlestar Galactica?

OTA updates are terrible anyway; they created about a dozen new problems for the one problem they solved.

Comms channels that allow remote operation of a personal vehicle are also anathema.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53447 on: September 24, 2024, 08:57:07 am »

The US government has decided to ban the sale of foreign 'smart cars' using technology from 'countries of concern', like China and Russia.
Specifically, cars using technology that connects them to other devices, like the internet or other cars, will be banned.

The ban will come into effect for software in cars produced from 2027 onwards, and for cars as a whole starting 2030.

This is about 50% protectionism (the US automakers are terrified of what cheap Chinese EVs could do to the market, even with the cost of retooling the designs to meet US safety regulations) and 50% legitimate concern. There is very solid evidence that China has been using tech of this sort for both political and industrial espionage (it is apparently common for industries that do business in China to use only cheap disposable electronics when visiting the country, physically shredding them upon leaving), and telling somebody in sensitive positions that they can't have *or ever be in* specific brands of car is far more difficult and intrusive than "you have to use these verified safe brands of electronics".
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Random_Dragon

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53448 on: September 24, 2024, 12:14:26 pm »

As usual with the whole tiktok spyware thing: it's annoying that we're perfectly okay with our country's own home-grown corporate spyware, but not also having an extra dose of government spyware floating around on the market is nice I guess.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53449 on: September 24, 2024, 01:43:59 pm »

Corporate data collection is unlikely to result in government and industrial secrets being delivered to a major international rival. That's something that lawmakers care a lot about.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53450 on: September 24, 2024, 02:05:04 pm »

Corporate data collection is unlikely to result in government and industrial secrets being delivered to a major international rival. That's something that lawmakers care a lot about.
You really think that big corporations are so loyal to the country they reside in?

On that topic: a lot of the USA's and other Western nations' most classified secrets are likely waiting at the bottom of the mediterranean near Sicily. Mike Lynch was known to not trust anything online, and to keep a lot of his intelligence data on board of his yacht. Intelligence services are guarding the site now, but they don't know if they're too late or not to prevent the documents from having found their way into foreign hands. They'll have to wait for the ship to be salvaged to be sure.

CNN reported on it a while ago:  https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/21/europe/bayesian-yacht-watertight-safes-intl/index.html
« Last Edit: September 24, 2024, 02:13:49 pm by martinuzz »
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53451 on: September 25, 2024, 01:03:36 am »

Cars folder
https://www.politico.eu/article/car-manufacturer-data-privacy-driver-passenger-sexual-activity-report/

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/categories/cars/

https://www.techdirt.com/2024/07/30/wyden-tells-ftc-unchecked-automakers-are-still-spying-on-their-customers-at-massive-scale/

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-propose-barring-chinese-software-hardware-connected-vehicles-sources-say-2024-09-21/

Remember, these plug into consumer devices that are probably intentionally vulnerable and may result in things like:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/youll-be-buried-by-next-week-police-probe-threatening-text-messages-sent-to-israelis/

I'd recommend privacy law reform that protects consumer privacy, and maybe in certain fields a duty to report vulnerabilities to software makers to some reasonable degree.

Speaking of cars, it looks like making the new car technology priced out of reach was a bad idea after all.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/vw-labour-clash-spotlights-europes-car-factory-conundrum-2024-09-25/

I believe my words were $10k-$15k EV. Now, that was complete horseshit. I was actually going for $20k-$25k because I assumed there would be some sort of reluctance to just, you know, do what had to be done. Instead it appears we could be headed for some dire times in the auto industry, the sort where in the old days companies would just evaporate into the ethereal plane or something. Now, it seems to have consolidated quite a bit. Moreover, since the union protests and wage demands are very visible it's more likely to receive public blame than politicians who haven't subsidized or did roadblock the thing that big companies don't want to shut down existing capital for a complete switch-over for, and that's not even mentioning the obsolete fuel concerns for the old technology is quite entangled with domestic and international politics.  EDIT: I was being a dickweed. or Brainy Smurf. I deleted all of that. Here is a less Complainey Smurf edit:
Proposal to swap government bonds for a shiny new EV, where the purchaser pays the government, the government offers a bond to the manufacturer (or the dealer! I forgot this industry is wacky like that for a moment) for the flaccid inventory, and the government pays the bill to the manufacturer while doing some level of price subsidy by not charging the buyer as much.
 Or some such. In order to liquidate inventory that is sitting somewhere as well as actually doing the thing that pretty much everyone agrees needs be done. NOTE: This should be done angrily due to being the result of someone else's greed, but a response is still necessary. I'd also recommend it be a unified type response where possible to try to avoid the poorly managed situation where everyone was competing with everyone during the covid crisis and supply orders. This is because it would be easy to turn say Euro producers against US producers against Japanese producers (and if I may add, also against China producers) and infect national trade and foreign policy in a direction that actually benefits a third party.

Go Ford Go! E-Scort '25 for $25k? The marketing writes itself. If you have a stick shift optional that would be pretty sweet but I also don't have any inkling how insane what I just wrote may be regarding the stick shift on an electric since I don't have much to do with cars other than drive them and read many, many news articles and reports and to a lesser degree charts and graphs and whatnot. If Ford folds on the budget EV scheme to get rich and sell a gazillion cars, then I would probably have to move to Mexico and buy a China car there, or switch to dirtbikes or something. That would be pretty radical actually...
« Last Edit: September 25, 2024, 04:20:16 am by Duuvian »
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Great Order

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53452 on: September 25, 2024, 06:21:36 am »

And if you aren't worried about your car recording when and where you're banging someone, think about your insurance premiums. No accidents but speed a little bit accidentally, and whaddya know it'll get sent off to your insurance company and they'll jack the prices up.

And I can promise you they won't lower the prices for being a good, safe driver.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53453 on: September 25, 2024, 06:33:57 am »

Corporate data collection is unlikely to result in government and industrial secrets being delivered to a major international rival. That's something that lawmakers care a lot about.
You really think that big corporations are so loyal to the country they reside in?

They're loyal to "We don't want our assets seized and most of the executive board either exiled to Russia or living in substandard Federal housing for the rest of their lives".
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53454 on: September 25, 2024, 09:40:12 am »

Corporate data collection is unlikely to result in government and industrial secrets being delivered to a major international rival. That's something that lawmakers care a lot about.
You really think that big corporations are so loyal to the country they reside in?

They're loyal to "We don't want our assets seized and most of the executive board either exiled to Russia or living in substandard Federal housing for the rest of their lives".
What federal housing? Section 8 has been worked over for decades.

Also everyone knows CEOs don't get punished really. Worst case fines and a few years in club fed for all but the fall guy.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53455 on: September 25, 2024, 10:19:39 am »

I believe my words were $10k-$15k EV. Now, that was complete horseshit. I was actually going for $20k-$25k because I assumed there would be some sort of reluctance to just, you know, do what had to be done. Instead it appears we could be headed for some dire times in the auto industry, the sort where in the old days companies would just evaporate into the ethereal plane or something. Now, it seems to have consolidated quite a bit. Moreover, since the union protests and wage demands are very visible it's more likely to receive public blame than politicians who haven't subsidized or did roadblock the thing that big companies don't want to shut down existing capital for a complete switch-over for, and that's not even mentioning the obsolete fuel concerns for the old technology is quite entangled with domestic and international politics.  EDIT: I was being a dickweed. or Brainy Smurf. I deleted all of that. Here is a less Complainey Smurf edit:
Proposal to swap government bonds for a shiny new EV, where the purchaser pays the government, the government offers a bond to the manufacturer (or the dealer! I forgot this industry is wacky like that for a moment) for the flaccid inventory, and the government pays the bill to the manufacturer while doing some level of price subsidy by not charging the buyer as much.
 Or some such. In order to liquidate inventory that is sitting somewhere as well as actually doing the thing that pretty much everyone agrees needs be done. NOTE: This should be done angrily due to being the result of someone else's greed, but a response is still necessary. I'd also recommend it be a unified type response where possible to try to avoid the poorly managed situation where everyone was competing with everyone during the covid crisis and supply orders. This is because it would be easy to turn say Euro producers against US producers against Japanese producers (and if I may add, also against China producers) and infect national trade and foreign policy in a direction that actually benefits a third party.
I can't really tell much of what you're talking about here but EVs are not gonna replace gas any time soon.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53456 on: September 25, 2024, 11:18:19 am »

It's a shame, really. EVs are a so much better experience than ICE vehicles even taking into account the need for different infrastructure and more trip planning.  I don't honestly know why it became such a political issue.

Once we get enough highway rest stops with DC fast chargers, culture should shift for the mainstream. Sure you still have the people with more money (or debt) than sense that drive around in diesel-powered lifted pickup trucks, but they will start to be in the minority.

Otherwise the OEMs just need to focus on replacing the powertrain instead of adding in all the other electronic nonsense they are adding in; if they would have just made EVs instead of trying to copy Tesla and make "experiences", we would be a lot farther along the transition.

You just have to realize that all the fear-mongering about "but the government can control your EV remotely!" already applies to ICE vehicles because they are just as computer controlled as EVs.  Also it's ignorance because it's way easier to make your own electricity to power an EV than it is to refine your own hydrocarbon fuel.  Way easier for the government to ration gasoline & diesel than it is to ration electricity.
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53457 on: September 25, 2024, 12:12:54 pm »

It's a shame, really. EVs are a so much better experience than ICE vehicles even taking into account the need for different infrastructure and more trip planning.  I don't honestly know why it became such a political issue.

Probably just an extension of climate change issues.

I remember watching one of the debates during the recent UK election, and one of the audience members asked something along the lines of “do you think it’s more important to combat climate change or have a good economy?” and then thinking that those two things aren’t mutually exclusive, but the fossil fuel industry doesn’t want people to see it that way because, to oversimplify it, they will make less money as a consequence of climate change initiatives, and that’s Bad For The EconomyTM (though really just them).
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53458 on: September 25, 2024, 12:44:46 pm »

It would be nice though if EV batteries used less materials that are horribly rare, environmentally unfriendly and only mineable in parts of the world that are not very friendly.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2024, 01:00:55 pm by martinuzz »
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #53459 on: September 25, 2024, 02:42:34 pm »

What federal housing? Section 8 has been worked over for decades.

Espionage gets you a long, long stretch in Federal prison. Doesn't matter who you are. CEOs can get out of a lot of things, but if you're spying for a hostile government (probably even if you're spying for a friendly one), they throw the book at you.


It would be nice though if EV batteries used less materials that are horribly rare, environmentally unfriendly and only mineable in parts of the world that are not very friendly.

The materials used to make EV batteries are not horribly rare. There's huge deposits in North America and Europe. North America and Europe also have environmental protection (and worker safety!) laws. Those are expensive to comply with (especially in start-up costs), and the price of the materials in question has historically been quite low due to fairly low demand. Thus mining in the developed world was never cost effective. As demand rises the prices will go up, and the viability of mining said huge deposits becomes an actual thing.

It's a shame, really. EVs are a so much better experience than ICE vehicles even taking into account the need for different infrastructure and more trip planning.  I don't honestly know why it became such a political issue.

There's a couple of big reasons. The biggest is lobbying, but not from the source you expect - the fossil fuel companies have long seen this coming and have been investing heavily to make sure they still profit. They're pushing against EVs, but they're nowhere near the main issue. The much bigger lobby bloc is car dealerships. Most dealerships don't make all that much money (as a percentage of their revenue) on selling the car. They make it on service contracts - and the majority of the stuff that gets routine maintenance on cars simply doesn't exist on an EV. Nor do a lot of the parts that often break. This means that each EV they sell produces much less of a long-term revenue source than selling a gas car does, even factoring in that most EV owners currently have to use the dealership because most auto shops aren't yet equipped to handle EVs. Making matters worse, there aren't many bare-bones EVs out there (even the low end stuff like the Bolt or LEAF are pretty full-featured) so there's not nearly as much room for upselling, and the profit margin is thinner on EVs in general. Worst of all, thanks to Tesla's successful direct-to-consumer marketing even the Big Automakers are starting to wonder if there's even a reason for dealerships to exist anymore.

This is also an area where the GOP has found a fear that actually resonates with union workers (a traditionally Democrat voting bloc). There is a lot of fear that EVs will result in fewer jobs in existing auto plants because EVs inherently have fewer parts, or that automakers will use "well, we need a factory tooled for EVs!" as an excuse to shut down union factories in Toledo or Detroit and open non-union factories in other cities. Even worse, there is a fear that much of the feeder industry for the auto industry will dry up and vanish - the guy who gets paid $25 an hour on a machine stamping out gas tanks or mufflers is going to fear the rise of a car that doesn't use gas tanks or mufflers. These concerns are overblown, because the EV transition is going to take long enough (in the best case) that the job loss will be handled by less hiring rather than layoffs, and it won't be as severe as people fear. But they are real fears, and exploiting such fears is the oldest trick in the political book.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2024, 02:56:05 pm by Lord Shonus »
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