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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4434289 times)

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52395 on: January 30, 2024, 05:10:26 pm »

I wonder though - how much complete disregard for the Constitution would the Supreme Court actually need to grant Trump that kind of power though?  I mean the Supreme Court is a bit odd these days, but I don't think they would actually grant the Executive that kind of power.
I think the thing you might be missing the SCOTUS doesn't actually have, like. Any. Power. They don't grant shit, and the extent they're important is reliant entirely on the legislative and the executive going "Yeah, sure." Their enforcement method is the executive branch, and they're appointed (or impeached) by the legislature. Their capabilities outside of advisement are basically nonexistent. For all they get a lot of air, the judiciary is the weakest branch of the federal government and it's not by a little.

If one or both the other branches tells the SCOTUS to pound sand the only recourse they have is the public opinion that put said other branches into power, and, uh, lots of that public opinion kinda' just doesn't like the SCOTUS.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52396 on: January 30, 2024, 05:19:20 pm »

Well, at the same time the President is just a dude with his power reliant on the people around him going "Yeah, sure." That's just how institutional power works.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52397 on: January 30, 2024, 11:55:31 pm »

Sure, but there's a fair bit distance between actually being somewhere in the chain of command or otherwise having grounds to dictate orders and just... not. And the SCOTUS isn't and doesn't. Judiciary in general doesn't, really, though that varies a fair bit more with lower courts than with the supreme court, specifically, iirc.

The supreme court itself is just a remarkably weak institution; the extent it's influential has a lot more to do with legislative dysfunction than any power inherent to the court.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52398 on: January 31, 2024, 07:29:27 am »

'Tis a strange definition of "SCOTUS has no power" when if you look at all the actual massive changes in US policy, many of them were direct results of SCOTUS rulings.  More people remember those cases than the names of the bills or Presidents when they were decided.

I mean everyone likes to talk about Citizens United, and there are all the old classics related to interstate commerce, and Roe v Wade, etc.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52399 on: January 31, 2024, 02:26:40 pm »

They were the direct results of legislation or enforcement issues; SCOTUS acted as an arbiter but they're literally incapable of actually exercising basically anything other than what the other two branches puts down. Roe's one of the best examples of this, because at every point before and after that decision congress could have put down legislation that either destroyed it or enshrined the protections it allowed into actual law -- that it didn't doesn't mean SCOTUS could have stopped it if the legislature wanted to. It just means congress was content to stick its thumb up its ass on the subject.

The only effect SCOTUS has ever had has been what the other two branches allow; the court's influence is due first and foremost to the other branches (especially congress, which has explicit "scotus doesn't get to touch this, sod off" capability) dropping one ball or another. The supreme court's had influence, and that's without question. It has very, very little actual power or ability to coerce that power.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52400 on: January 31, 2024, 04:05:46 pm »

By law, the Judicial branch is equal in power to the other three branches, and trying to enforce a law that SCOTUS has deemed unconstitutional is every bit as illegal as if you were ignoring laws passed by Congress. You can just as easily claim that Congress has no power because the Executive can simply refuse to implement any laws they pass, or that the Executive branch has no power because the Judicial branch can just say "nah, even if you arrest or fine anybody we'll just let them go".
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Random_Dragon

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52401 on: January 31, 2024, 04:07:50 pm »

Pretty much what the fascists wannabes are inclined to do when there's a decision they don't like, yeah. Stating the obvious there. :V
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52402 on: January 31, 2024, 04:14:36 pm »

By law, the Judicial branch is equal in power to the other three branches, and trying to enforce a law that SCOTUS has deemed unconstitutional is every bit as illegal as if you were ignoring laws passed by Congress. You can just as easily claim that Congress has no power because the Executive can simply refuse to implement any laws they pass, or that the Executive branch has no power because the Judicial branch can just say "nah, even if you arrest or fine anybody we'll just let them go".
The executive branch has all the functional power, because they make the decisions about what actually happens. Even if the Supreme Court said that, the Executive could, in principle, just refuse to allow anyone to be released and start illegally holding people in indefinite confinement without charges. Remember, the DOJ is part of the Executive and answers to the President. The Judicial branch can only order people released, but isn't actually responsible for carrying out those orders.
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52403 on: January 31, 2024, 06:04:52 pm »

The president can do illegal things, but they would be illegal.
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Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52404 on: February 01, 2024, 12:16:20 am »

From some of the clips I saw in passing on the news, Blumenthal made an absolute ass of himself today grandstanding. If I wanted Marsha Blackburn's ideas imposed on me, I promise to let you know.

I do believe it's time to start organizing against this more strongly, but I don't have much to offer in that regard and realistically after thinking about it, what's already visibly being done to point out flaws doesn't seem very likely to be superseded by much else other than maybe peaceful protest, and I'd look silly yelling at the sky there too.

However there is something like competence Ron Wyden is showing, in my opinion:

https://www.techdirt.com/2024/01/31/as-congress-grandstands-nonsense-kid-safety-bills-senator-wyden-reintroduces-legislation-that-would-actually-help-deal-with-kid-exploitation-online/
EDIT: Here is the bill text for the Wyden bill the article is referring to.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/223/text


I have a bookmarks section called "Wyden does good things". That should be a hint of who in my opinion actually knows what they are doing, and who are showboating. EDIT3: I failed a meme here and removed it out of shame.

Once again, unless it had a significant re-write that I am sure it did not as that would imply... something else than can be expected from that part of the party... KOSAS is a disaster of a bill for the American people. It seems less intended for it's stated purpose than to grant attorneys general a massive upgrade to fight partisan culture wars. EDIT2: Removed angry conjecture for once.

Now, even if you disagree with the contentious idea contained above, if you want to know why it would be foolish for a company to work voluntarily with the people pushing these nonsensical power grabs that appear to be a way to corral people into a gatewayed, Disney-ified internet, here is a good reason: the backstabs if you ever say no.

https://www.techdirt.com/2024/01/30/doj-decides-to-try-backpages-michael-lacey-for-the-third-time-after-failing-to-get-convictions-the-first-two-times/

Spoiler: America's Finest (click to show/hide)

Remember that this had a broad ripple effect across the internet. So you see, it's a bunch of old prudes who love to complain about how lonely the young people are after taking away things that make them less lonely once they reach a nearly universally accepted age of majority and consent (18), such as effective dating sites (which I would not have included Backpage in, as that was for something else that was actually illegal in many jurisdictions... however it's legal collapse did effect sites that I would lump in with "effective dating site" that catered to consentual adult casual relationships not specifically involving the transfer of value to also shut down for fear of similar legal woes). Now, I say this should stop, before it effects the next generation of gullible people like Brian Schatz (who sadly I only know from his age verification bill which must be enormously frustrating as it had some problems I previously yelled at the sky about) falling for things that sound suspiciously like what our opponents in ye olde hybrid war would want, in not one but a whole fucking series of bills whose aggregate effect will without much imagination hinder what types of criticism are able to be mustered by people against the mountain of resources that goes towards campaigning in a very loosely regulated electoral finance system. A procession of poorly founded and whacky bills have been appearing and sometimes even passing, many of which are no doubt quite obviously unconstitutional and plainly visibly so even to what must appear to be a nut yelling at the sky on the internet like me, and it's not solely from the party I expect it from by now, sadly.

Still, at the federal level nothing really got done due to the deficiency of the bills themselves, except maybe for people who I don't think have good interests at heart cavorting in what appears to be some sort of anticipatory glee. The KOSAS bill as of my previous reading of it is like crippling yourself by pre-emptively taking the blame for giving a ridiculous authority to people who are clearly going to abuse it to the point of saying so, and despite there being actual alternatives that make far more sense than what I know about KOSAS, it is simply amazing leadership is too out there to seem to know it.

EDIT: I yelled too hard at Blumenthal there at the end, enough to make me feel bad and I removed it. I'll never make demagogue rank 1 now. I think I should be clear that unless there were some really big changes KOSAS is a big stinker and they should look at Wyden's proposals instead.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 07:05:37 am by Duuvian »
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Maximum™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52405 on: February 01, 2024, 02:39:03 am »

The real problem is that the executive branch has power it can legitimately and unequivocally use: add seats to the court, it's a power which congress abrogated briefly by artificially holding the number of seats at 8 for most of a year, and the reason it was at 9 for so long is there used to be 9 circuit courts.

Guess how many there are now?

Compared to actual fascists Biden is fantastic, but compared to someone who would actually do some critical shit to cripple the right wing takeover of the government and reverse devastating policies and decisions they've enacted he's a goddamn disappointment.

He's done good shit, but he shies away from some areas for no real reason.

Similarly there is no real reason why California or New York couldn't draw up new maps and split into new states and undo this artificial 50/50 stalemate bullshit, if they chose to do it there isn't much that could be done to stop it.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52406 on: February 01, 2024, 03:13:01 am »

Similarly there is no real reason why California or New York couldn't draw up new maps and split into new states and undo this artificial 50/50 stalemate bullshit, if they chose to do it there isn't much that could be done to stop it.
Uh, I live in upstate New York, and I can confidently tell you that any division that isn't heinously gerrymandered hell splitting chunks of New York City into each sub-state would basically be guaranteed to create at least one new Republican stronghold.

California, too, had more Trump voters than any other state, so you'd have to somehow go out of your way to gerrymander them out of power as well.

They would also need the consent of Congress to actually allow any new states to be inducted into the Union.

ETA: And by the way, if they DID do that, there's nothing stopping the Republican states from doing the same. The "50/50 stalemate" isn't somehow caused by the number of states.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 03:25:04 am by Maximum Spin »
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Criptfeind

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52407 on: February 01, 2024, 04:55:09 am »

I bet realistically California could do it if they could get past the congressional issue, a split into north and south California would probably work and wouldn't be too unreasonable. Unlike a theoretical "north york" or something that'd probably have to include the Bronx and maybe part of Manhattan to make it work.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52408 on: February 01, 2024, 10:46:59 am »

California, too, had more Trump voters than any other state, so you'd have to somehow go out of your way to gerrymander them out of power as well.
LMFAO, that got me!  You gotta put a tone indicator on that shit or people might not get the joke.  Wow...

Like, they might not know that California voted 63.5% Biden to 34.3% Trump... the kind of metric that would actually matter when predicting new senators.  You'd have to gerrymander pretty flippin hard to eke out a Republican state there!  Avoid all the cities, basically.

Whereas Texas voted 52% for Trump, yet is a solidly conservative (and openly seditious) hellhole with 67% Republican representatives in Congress.  How's that for gerrymandering?  I know a lot of good people in Austin who'd love a little redistricting.
Every reliably red or blue state has frustrated voters, but that's a LOT of Democrats being taken for a ride... doesn't seem like an accident to me.

Similarly there is no real reason why California or New York couldn't draw up new maps and split into new states and undo this artificial 50/50 stalemate bullshit, if they chose to do it there isn't much that could be done to stop it.
Uh, I live in upstate New York, and I can confidently tell you that any division that isn't heinously gerrymandered hell splitting chunks of New York City into each sub-state would basically be guaranteed to create at least one new Republican stronghold.
60.9% to 37.7%.  Again, unless you're making a twisty state that avoids all population centers, good luck with your red "stronghold" in New York.  Rural people are loud and armed, but they vastly overestimate their numbers.
They still MATTER, don't get it twisted, but they're not some silent disenfranchised majority.  They are literally the opposite of that. 

And they have representatives (both locally and often in congress) for their specific issues.  They should be happy with their pork barrels, but instead they're chronically aggrieved and violent... go figure.  Probably all the lies they're sold.
They would also need the consent of Congress to actually allow any new states to be inducted into the Union.

ETA: And by the way, if they DID do that, there's nothing stopping the Republican states from doing the same. The "50/50 stalemate" isn't somehow caused by the number of states.
"We can't FIX things or else the Republicans would have permission to ruin things!"
We should never have to hear this nonsense EVER again after Trump filled the Supreme Court, and Mitch McConnell taunted us about how they would do literally whatever they can get away with at all times.  Such as blocking Obama's centrist picks.

That pretense of a balance of civility is DONE, the Republicans burned it in an end-zone dance.
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EuchreJack

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52409 on: February 01, 2024, 04:54:37 pm »

It's official, President Biden is now a Fascist.
(Since the Internet does not convey sarcasm, and I like not being banned, this is absolutely sarcasm.)
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