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[dragdeler]

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[MaxTheFox]

With how americans are blind to american exceptionalism, how you must allways jack off joyfully to the flag, jizz manly tears when you hear the hymn, and all those other bullshit symbols they cherish, it's really not hard to make the case that the imperium lays claim on every aspect of it's citizens life, even their inner thoughts, aka totalitarianism.

That's many countries, to be honest. The same stuff happens in Russia (and it's worse to the point of actual hypernationalism). Difference is, it's willing.

Edit: I'm off to sleep. See you all later, thanks for keeping this civil and not calling me names.

[Micro102]

I really don't get your argument. Yes they did have the opportunity to murder everyone they disagreed with several times before over the past damn five decades. What reason do you even have to believe so? That's called being paranoid.

Really? How were they going to do that? Snap their fingers and then every general and politician would just shrug and go "guess they can kill half of the government and gain control of the military"? Just order soldiers to shoot all the democrats (maybe a personal army like DeSantis tried to make)? Or maybe, they would try to rally a mob of people to do it for them. You seem to constantly fall short of realizing that a coup attempt happened, and that the democrats very well could have all been killed, leaving the GOP as the sole political power. Just because they didn't succeed doesn't mean they aren't fascist.

Oh they are different, it's just that both are trash. Trump is worse, I agree but I never said he is equal or better. Somehow I don't think you are arguing in good faith here...

Yes, I said "aren't that different". I know you think they are different. But that doesn't mean you aren't shortening the difference. Like I said, "trash vs nuclear waste dump", but you want them both to be just trash. You are closing the gap between a fascist and a generic right wing politician. Passively dismissing all the damage Trump has done by insinuating it's close to what Biden does. That it's not THAT big a deal if one or the other is in power.

[Rolan7]

It's also not just a difference of degree.  It's basically comparing greed to racism, to over-simplify.

IMO the Republican party has been liberal up until quite recently.  Its *voter base* is rife with racism and religious nationalism - AKA fascists.  The Republican party long pandered to these fascists, yet only really cared about the liberal vices of accumulating wealth and exploiting foreign markets by force.

The party has completely lost that level of control over their base.  A mob tried to assassinate the party's Vice President, who actually represents conservative-liberal values, and his party's response is to defend the mob and chastise their lone dissenters.  I wonder if this is what a mafia coup looks like from the outside.  I'd definitely feel more sympathy but the party seems to prefer shifting to fascism rather than breaking Omerta.

[MaxTheFox]

I really don't get your argument. Yes they did have the opportunity to murder everyone they disagreed with several times before over the past damn five decades. What reason do you even have to believe so? That's called being paranoid.

Really? How were they going to do that? Snap their fingers and then every general and politician would just shrug and go "guess they can kill half of the government and gain control of the military"? Just order soldiers to shoot all the democrats (maybe a personal army like DeSantis tried to make)? Or maybe, they would try to rally a mob of people to do it for them. You seem to constantly fall short of realizing that a coup attempt happened, and that the democrats very well could have all been killed, leaving the GOP as the sole political power. Just because they didn't succeed doesn't mean they aren't fascist.

The bulk of Republicans did not support the coup. Only the fringe did. Jesus Christ are we going to keep going "yes! no! yes! no!" at each other for another 10 pages?

Oh they are different, it's just that both are trash. Trump is worse, I agree but I never said he is equal or better. Somehow I don't think you are arguing in good faith here...

Yes, I said "aren't that different". I know you think they are different. But that doesn't mean you aren't shortening the difference. Like I said, "trash vs nuclear waste dump", but you want them both to be just trash. You are closing the gap between a fascist and a generic right wing politician. Passively dismissing all the damage Trump has done by insinuating it's close to what Biden does. That it's not THAT big a deal if one or the other is in power.

I think you misunderstood me then. Trump is indeed miles worse. I agree with you on that.

It's also not just a difference of degree.  It's basically comparing greed to racism, to over-simplify.

IMO the Republican party has been liberal up until quite recently.  Its *voter base* is rife with racism and religious nationalism - AKA fascists.  The Republican party long pandered to these fascists, yet only really cared about the liberal vices of accumulating wealth and exploiting foreign markets by force.

The party has completely lost that level of control over their base.  A mob tried to assassinate the party's Vice President, who actually represents conservative-liberal values, and his party's response is to defend the mob and chastise their lone dissenters.  I wonder if this is what a mafia coup looks like from the outside.  I'd definitely feel more sympathy but the party seems to prefer shifting to fascism rather than breaking Omerta.

That part of the voter base is a vocal minority. I have met plenty of Republicans online who weren't racist.

[hector13]

They’re so in the minority that a leading Republican had to go on a major conservative talk show to apologize for calling the rioters on January 6th terrorists.

Teddy boy walking back them comments.

[Rolan7]

I definitely agree that not all Republicans are racists.  Most of the ones in power are greedy instead, merely appeasing their largely-racist voter base.  A Republican representative doesn't have to be racist to disenfranchise and over-police minority communities.  It's just the best way to keep office.  And maybe they dogwhistle racist phrases on top of that to try to keep their racist base happy.  That truly doesn't make them racist, no more than certain Democrats actually give a shit about helping people.  It's just the roles they play to keep power.

A Republican voter who isn't actually a Libertarian is either a racist, a Christian nationalist, or (mostly commonly) misled by very expensive and effective propaganda.  Those are the only two things the Republican party offer: prosperity through assisting the rich/corporations, and resisting social progress.  Someone who likes the prosperity (cutting taxes and regulations) but doesn't care about the social values is a Libertarian...  Or is in office wearing an R or D.

I certainly have beef with the Democratic party establishment (despite a lot of good individuals running as Democrat) but the Republican party brooks NO dissent in its pro-corporate, anti-progress agenda.  They won't even let themselves question the riot where elected Republicans were targeted.  That's what I meant by Omerta - they cannot ever question their party in public, EVER.  Some elected Democrat representatives at least have public disagreements with the party - AKA "The Left eating itself :crylaugh: :crylaugh: 88 all hail the god-fuhrer 88"

But sure, some Republican voters don't identify as racist yet.  I bet a lot of them even proudly tolerate people living in sin, and feel real generous about it.
(I have older relatives on my mother's side who aren't racist and are pretty cool about LGBT stuff.  They're Libertarians, not Republicans.  they also hate taxes but at least they're just being selfish instead of crusading)

[Lord Shonus]

Yeah their name sounded pretty communist 'national socialist german worker's party'

That's "national socialist" and "German Worker", not "national" "socialist" "german" and "worker". National Socialism was a means of co-opting the undercurrent of socialism, but it did so by infusing them with a nationalistic spirit that placed native-born German workers on top and all others on the bottom.

This is different from the Soviet "We'll build Communism in one country first" or the US "We don't need to listen to foreigners to sort out our labor problems, and we don't need to mix their politics into it" approaches in the same era.

[MaxTheFox]

They’re so in the minority that a leading Republican had to go on a major conservative talk show to apologize for calling the rioters on January 6th terrorists.

Teddy boy walking back them comments.

The thing about a vocal minority is that their complaints are always the loudest.

I definitely agree that not all Republicans are racists.  Most of the ones in power are greedy instead, merely appeasing their largely-racist voter base.  A Republican representative doesn't have to be racist to disenfranchise and over-police minority communities.  It's just the best way to keep office.  And maybe they dogwhistle racist phrases on top of that to try to keep their racist base happy.  That truly doesn't make them racist, no more than certain Democrats actually give a shit about helping people.  It's just the roles they play to keep power.

A Republican voter who isn't actually a Libertarian is either a racist, a Christian nationalist, or (mostly commonly) misled by very expensive and effective propaganda.  Those are the only two things the Republican party offer: prosperity through assisting the rich/corporations, and resisting social progress.  Someone who likes the prosperity (cutting taxes and regulations) but doesn't care about the social values is a Libertarian...  Or is in office wearing an R or D.

I certainly have beef with the Democratic party establishment (despite a lot of good individuals running as Democrat) but the Republican party brooks NO dissent in its pro-corporate, anti-progress agenda.  They won't even let themselves question the riot where elected Republicans were targeted.  That's what I meant by Omerta - they cannot ever question their party in public, EVER.  Some elected Democrat representatives at least have public disagreements with the party - AKA "The Left eating itself :crylaugh: :crylaugh: 88 all hail the god-fuhrer 88"

But sure, some Republican voters don't identify as racist yet.  I bet a lot of them even proudly tolerate people living in sin, and feel real generous about it.
(I have older relatives on my mother's side who aren't racist and are pretty cool about LGBT stuff.  They're Libertarians, not Republicans.  they also hate taxes but at least they're just being selfish instead of crusading)

Yeah they're bad regardless, most of this is pedantry.

[Micro102]

The bulk of Republicans did not support the coup. Only the fringe did. Jesus Christ are we going to keep going "yes! no! yes! no!" at each other for another 10 pages?

Didn't we already go over this? Two republicans were just punished for merely joining in on the investigation of the the coup. If you try to cover up a crime, you support it. If you call a coup "legitimate political discourse", you support it. At least the majority of republican politicians support the coup, but from what reporters have said, there was a handful of "nays" at the vote, meaning the vast majority of the GOP politicians support it.

And I hope you don't resort to "I was actually talking about the people" again, because we were just comparing the actions of the Nazi politicians, not voters.

I would love for this to end but you are just repeating that the fascism is just a fringe element of the GOP because they haven't done a coup, after I'm repeatedly citing statistics showing the majority of their politicians (people that are voted for and supported) are ok with the coup. I pointed out how you could say the same thing about the Nazi party in the 1930's, that the Nazi members were just following along with the fascist politicians, and you went back to "well only the fringe support the coup in the GOP" (just looked up polls for republicans thinking that the Jan 6 terrorists should be prosecuted, and it's at like 57% compared to the 95% of democrats. So even republican voters think that coups are fine.)

This isn't a fringe. The majority of GOP politicians, and an almost majority of republican voters are ok with coups happening. And I will keep pushing back on you denying this. If you don't want to hear it, just stop responding.

[MaxTheFox]

The bulk of Republicans did not support the coup. Only the fringe did. Jesus Christ are we going to keep going "yes! no! yes! no!" at each other for another 10 pages?

Didn't we already go over this? Two republicans were just punished for merely joining in on the investigation of the the coup. If you try to cover up a crime, you support it. If you call a coup "legitimate political discourse", you support it. At least the majority of republican politicians support the coup, but from what reporters have said, there was a handful of "nays" at the vote, meaning the vast majority of the GOP politicians support it.

And I hope you don't resort to "I was actually talking about the people" again, because we were just comparing the actions of the Nazi politicians, not voters.

I would love for this to end but you are just repeating that the fascism is just a fringe element of the GOP because they haven't done a coup, after I'm repeatedly citing statistics showing the majority of their politicians (people that are voted for and supported) are ok with the coup. I pointed out how you could say the same thing about the Nazi party in the 1930's, that the Nazi members were just following along with the fascist politicians, and you went back to "well only the fringe support the coup in the GOP" (just looked up polls for republicans thinking that the Jan 6 terrorists should be prosecuted, and it's at like 57% compared to the 95% of democrats. So even republican voters think that coups are fine.)

This isn't a fringe. The majority of GOP politicians, and an almost majority of republican voters are ok with coups happening. And I will keep pushing back on you denying this. If you don't want to hear it, just stop responding.

There is absolutely nothing the majority has done to seize power. There were less than 1000 stormers. While their general apathy towards the coup is worrying, they did nothing else which is what damns the "Republicans are fascists" argument IMO. Where are the non-stop street fights between the "SA" and communists? Where are the assassinations? Where is the authoritarian rhetoric? As someone who studied the history of the Nazi Party, this simply looks like fearmongering. I'm simply not convinced that anything of that scale will happen, especially with Trump out of office.

[dragdeler]

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[Rolan7]

I'll accept pushback and clarification on my argument that the Republican voter base is either Libertarian, fascist, or expensively misled.  But our Republican elected representatives are supporting the coup attempt, in which people died, as if it was simple a demonstration.  It was not.

People were there to kill Mike Pence for stepping out of line.  What do you think they planned to do to Nancy Pelosi?  I hate both of these people, but we need to call this what it was: an armed insurrection with bloody intent.

Don't be distracted by them clowning all over the very seat of our government.  Sure that made us a laughing stock to the world, and destroyed what shreds of hope I had in American Liberalism...  brought my mother to tears, seeing such disrespect... but you're right, it was just some people.  Let's even pretend that they didn't almost corner and terrorize our elected officials.

It's just a few people, fine.  A act of heinous terrorism, thwarted despite the president stalling the response.  Fine.

The Republican party refuses to call this anything other than a demonstration of free speech, and is stripping important privileges from the two members who dared to call this out for what it is.

I don't care what you think the average Republican voter is, but the Republican Party condones this act of terrorism.  That's how far they've gone.  They.  Are.  Fascist.  Not every one, but as a group they have lost to it.  When fascists come after some of a group, and that group says "Nah that's fine actually, and we're throwing out these two people for disagreeing", that's not a fascist revolution.  That's the result of a successful fascist revolution in the party.

By their deeds you will know them.

[MaxTheFox]

The capitol is a BIG building, if there were less than 100 stormers, all of the cameramen present did a splendid job LMAO.

That was a typo, I meant 1000. Thanks for informing me though.

I'll accept pushback and clarification on my argument that the Republican voter base is either Libertarian, fascist, or expensively misled.  But our Republican elected representatives are supporting the coup attempt, in which people died, as if it was simple a demonstration.  It was not.

People were there to kill Mike Pence for stepping out of line.  What do you think they planned to do to Nancy Pelosi?  I hate both of these people, but we need to call this what it was: an armed insurrection with bloody intent.

Don't be distracted by them clowning all over the very seat of our government.  Sure that made us a laughing stock to the world, and destroyed what shreds of hope I had in American Liberalism...  brought my mother to tears, seeing such disrespect... but you're right, it was just some people.  Let's even pretend that they didn't almost corner and terrorize our elected officials.

It's just a few people, fine.  A act of heinous terrorism, thwarted despite the president stalling the response.  Fine.

The Republican party refuses to call this anything other than a demonstration of free speech, and is stripping important privileges from the two members who dared to call this out for what it is.

I don't care what you think the average Republican voter is, but the Republican Party condones this act of terrorism.  That's how far they've gone.  They.  Are.  Fascist.  Not every one, but as a group they have lost to it.  When fascists come after some of a group, and that group says "Nah that's fine actually, and we're throwing out these two people for disagreeing", that's not a fascist revolution.  That's the result of a successful fascist revolution in the party.

By their deeds you will know them.

I agree that that was terrible. But to me, that still isn't fascism. See the point I made in my post. They are, at worst, simply reactionaries. And I refuse to condone violent revolution against them on principle.

Anyways it is clear that neither I nor Micro will change our opinions. I'll just respectfully stop arguing for now and perhaps mull on this some more once I have more time. You actually made me think about this even if I don't necessarily agree. Goodbye.

[hector13]

They’re so in the minority that a leading Republican had to go on a major conservative talk show to apologize for calling the rioters on January 6th terrorists.

Teddy boy walking back them comments.

The thing about a vocal minority is that their complaints are always the loudest.

They’re not a minority if a leading politician and a major news network feel the need to pander to them in order for their continued existence in those roles, was my point.