Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Vector]

Right, but a lot of the laws around keeping queers in the closet are specifically there so that the youth don't see being LGBT as an option. The efforts to chip away at things by banning books, banning youth transition, banning LGBT teachers, and so on are an active attempt to maintain power structures as they are. Which is why we must challenge them. Which gets us to None's point: any amount of challenge is treated as too much, often including being alive.

I don't think it really matters how nice and respectable a person acts. Some of them will be satisfied with you knowing your place. Some just want you gone.

[wierd]

Oh, I agree.

Again, the position is not one of "Does not push."

The fundamental disagreement, is one of "Any pushing is seen as too much."


Again, this comes back again to previous statements I have made, concerning how to approach people.  When you immediately jump to that conclusion, you shut out any potential for changing their view, even a tiny bit.  You instead only reinforce that view, and then, having done so, give them a saucy anecdote to tell their grandkids, about how dangerous and bad the trans people are.

If instead, you open your dialog with "I understand that you think I am a dirty pervert. That I only want to use this bathroom to trap some poor woman in here, and then rape her. I understand this. It is not true.  Instead, imagine if one day, you were a man. No, I do not mean "you lust for women"-- I mean, you wake up one morning, just as you currently are, in every way--- except, this morning, you need to shave your face, have heavy bone structure, and yes--- those.  Would you not wish, very much to have your old body back?  That feeling is what every day of my life is. The only difference, is that I was never permitted to be pretty to begin with."  There is SOME chance that you will melt that icequeen's heart, just enough, that she stops thinking of you as Mr Rapeface.

Doing so however, requires understanding those irrational fears. Acknowledging them as real. And trying to forge a commonality with the person that holds them.

You do not get there via echo-chamber isolation, blocking people who hold such views so you dont have to interact with them, or worst of all, painting them as monsters.

What they do is monstrous-- but they do so out of fear. (Either loss of power, loss of identity, or loss of safety-- it does not matter.  It is still out of fear.)

[None]

None:  I take issue with this presumption; It follows the same rule of "X will always happen, so Y is unavoidable."

There are historical counterpoints to such things.

"The Nords will always worship Odin"  Et al.

It implies, through implicit assumption, that the behavior is somehow intrinsically linked to humanity itself.  If you take that assumption on its face, the advocacy is meaningless to begin with. 

Rather, listen to what I am actually saying--- The people that have such views, have those views because of certain reasons.  When those reasons no longer exist, or no longer apply, they cannot easily recruit young people to continue those beliefs.  Much like worship of the Aesir is not a mainstream thing in the north of europe anymore, such notions wont be mainstream in any measurable capacity, as long as young people have no reason to adopt them.

It is this "I do not want young people to adopt them", that is the central thrust of my argument.

Turning Point USA.

PragerU.

Hitler Youth.

Sunday School.

Child soldiers.

Gay conversion camps.

There will always be ways to target the youth with toxic ideas as long as an idea can perpetuate. The creation of in-groups and out-groups IS implicit to maintaining power structures- whether or not it's human nature to build such power structures is outside my grasp. Propaganda and goalpost-moving is a very effective way to defend and perpetuate these ideas. Yes, I will expect these things to happen, because the bigotry and toxic ideas being perpetuated does not need to be argued fairly.

And then when one nasty idea dies out, it'll put on different clothes to keep making outgroups. Satanic Panic, the second Red Scare we've had leading up to the 2020 election.

I will expect unfairness, but that does not devalue the fight I'm trying to make. Maybe that doesn't make advocacy special, because it's likely always to be a requirement, but it still needs to be done.

[martinuzz]

I do think, weird, that you are being discriminatory. Or in other words, you have let yourself be dragged into entrenchment of young vs old.

I don't think the boomers are the problem. Most anti-gay rethoric and violence that I see and hear on the streets and on the news does not come from those. It comes from the younger generations (and the conservative religious regardless of age).
A lot of pro-lgbt activism is carried by boomers.

But perhaps that's different in the USA than it is over here.

[wierd]

I can only meaningfully report on my own slice of Americana.

I live in a very red state.

Here, the majority of people who make anti gay and anti LGBT (yes, I know that is a tautology) rhetoric, are people in the boomer, and Generation X demographics.   People in the millennial and younger demographic are "Why does this matter?"

The boomers are the most vocal.

This will almost certainly be different in a blue state.

However, most of the real problem, comes from red states, like where I live.

[Dunamisdeos]

Here, the majority of people who make anti gay and anti LGBT (yes, I know that is a tautology) rhetoric, are people in the boomer, and Generation X demographics.   People in the millennial and younger demographic are "Why does this matter?"

Can confirm this is my own experience as well.

[Vector]

Ah. I'm in a blue state where people will swear up and down that they're down with the LGBT people but meaningful inclusion is often not present.

We're currently fighting in my university over trying to get any unisex toilet (single-occupancy or otherwise) in the math building; this was opposed by some faculty members who apparently were resisting even if it would take literally nothing away from current toilet arrangements. There are more trans math grad students, at least on the Discord, than cisgender female math grad students.

EDIT: Meant to add that my experience has typically been that older generations are less misogynistic but more racist, and homophobia/transphobia tends to be something you complain about behind closed doors, or something you enforce just by happening not to invite queer people to conversations. And often these opinions are expressed by bringing up "polite concerns," e.g. "it is wrong to allow LGBT marriages and I will vote to ban them because I am concerned about boys growing up without a father."

[wierd]

Here, the majority of people who make anti gay and anti LGBT (yes, I know that is a tautology) rhetoric, are people in the boomer, and Generation X demographics.   People in the millennial and younger demographic are "Why does this matter?"

Can confirm this is my own experience as well.

It is also important to note:

The most politically active demographic in the US is the boomer demographic.

This is because they get a lot of privilege to do so:  GenX and younger, were shut out of meaningful company retirement plans. (Like pensions.) This means that most of them do not have sufficient savings for retirement in any meaningful capacity, where boomers DO.

Boomers are therefore, Highly opinionated, Vocal, and-- most importantly-- Not chained to a desk/cube/cash register/assembly line--- and can thus engage quite animatedly with the political process.


Generation X, while equally dogmatized against LGBT and gay people, are chained to desks, just like Millenials and younger.  This means that they suffer the same disadvantage of not being able to go out and vote on a whim, like Boomers can.

It is for this reason, that I assert that when boomers are in stark decline that this is when you will see profound legal changes happen, and not before.  At that time, you will have GenX, vs Millenial + Modern.

The locus of political power will shift, and will shift toward "Why is this an issue?", rather than "MAN IN A DRESS!!! IN MY BATHROOM!!! OH NOES!"

This is why the anti-lgbt mouthpieces are trying so very hard to recruit millennials and younger people.

[Random_Dragon]

The locus of political power will shift, and will shift toward "Why is this an issue?", rather than "MAN IN A DRESS!!! IN MY BATHROOM!!! OH NOES!"

Hopefully, though if the "chained to a desk" state of affairs persist to the point of the latest generations having little hope for a reasonable retirement, I do worry that the political atmosphere will shift instead in the direction of whoever's still able to afford the free time needed to be politically active. Which will most likely be the wealthy.

[MrRoboto75]

The locus of political power will shift

More like congress will be full of rotting incumbent skeletons, and the 2024 prez election will be a 90 year old versus another 90 year old.  One of them will die on the debate stage but still get a third of the electoral college votes.

[wierd]

--Courtesy snip--

In my experience, it is mostly boomer and GenX women, discussing how they dont want "IT" in their bathroom-- that "IT" frightens them, and that they are so very glad that "NONE OF THOSE" work there.

Pretty much that bluntly too.

Again, they misidentify me as "gay", rather than as genderqueer.  Most of them have taken several YEARS of exposure to me to accept that, no, REALLY, I am not into sex. With anything.  Even then, they admit that my very existence is unsettling for them, but they accept that I am harmless-- by viewing me as being gay, even if I am not. (They still cannot grasp the concept of what I actually am-- or rather, they cannot cope with it internally.)


Most people in the millennial and younger demographic are literally reacting to listening to the GenX and Boomers talk, going "GEEZE-- Why is that important? They just want to take a piss."


Hilariously, there are LOTS of gay men in nursing.  Gay men are well tolerated in the vocation.

In general discussion, Boomers are the most anti-gay, and anti-mixed-race.  GenX is the most anti-trans, and the most unable to grasp complex gender.

I would speculate that this coincides with religious zeal.  Boomers are more likely to be highly fundamentalist, and thus to treat homosexuality as innately morally sinful, and to bible-thump over its condemnation of mixed race marriage.  ("Sodomites" et al.)   GenX on the other hand, are just fearful of things that unsettle them, or are antithetical to their identity.

[Lord Shonus]

One of the biggest issues I've been dealing with in an official capacity at work (I'm with the union) recently is transphobia. The older people mostly just don't understand the issue - they're toxic and hostile, but in an ignorant way rather than a malicious one. Most of the really bad shit -including threats of fatal violence- is coming from the youngest people.

Granted, we don't hire anybody under 21 for most positions, but that's still squarely in the late millenial/early gen-z demographic.

[wierd]

We need more data on this--

Red state, or Blue state?

[Doomblade187]

I see that as coming from the fact that younger generations have been exposed to the issue more. Sure, they're somewhat more progressive as a group, but those who have already been exposed to trans people and decided that they're bad for whatever reason they choose will have stronger reactions than people who are really just hearing about it prominently for the first time.

[ArchimedesWojak]

I don't read the news because most of it is bullshit so i have have come here to ask two questions

I heard abortion rights are going to be taken away, is this true?

How are LGBTQ+ rights doing?