Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 2945 2946 [2947] 2948 2949 ... 3566

Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4227238 times)

Vector

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44190 on: March 04, 2021, 03:03:31 pm »

Both the Left, AND the Right, have been actively involved in this disgusting practice for quite some time now, and it is *ALWAYS* about the virtue signalling of "ELIMINATING!" the "OFFENSIVE!!!" content.

I am seeing only one book on that list that came under fire by the Left: Huck Finn.

Part of the problem here is that the book is absolutely littered with the N-word and it is standard practice to read parts of books aloud in English classrooms. This necessitates a conversation on whether students & teacher are going to read that word aloud or not. If the agreement is "no," you get the normal "cancel culture" blowback. When the answer is yes, there is a documented issue with white students taking this as an opportunity to say a word that they want to say: permission, as it were, which they participate in with relish. A more-than-uncomfortable environment for Black students ensues.

Source: well, teachers have literally not fixed this problem in their classrooms and are struggling to figure out what to do; generally the accepted compromise is to read books on the time period, like Kindred or Homegoing, that don't sidestep reality but don't automatically force this issue with classroom reading.

EDIT: Maybe the Bible?

Captain Underpants is bannable in part because of its (mildly) obscene content, but also because one of the leads has two fathers.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 03:07:48 pm by Vector »
Logged
"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
  • This text isn't very personal.
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44191 on: March 04, 2021, 03:19:13 pm »

Captain Underpants is bannable in part because of its (mildly) obscene content, but also because one of the leads has two fathers.

Sorry, hopefully this doesn't devolve into a side-track, but: What episode of Captain Underpants is that? My kid has almost all of them and I have no idea what you're talking about there.  Unless by "lead" you mean "some character whose parents are not mentioned often"?
Logged
This product contains deoxyribonucleic acid which is known to the State of California to cause cancer, reproductive harm, and other health issues.

Dostoevsky

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44192 on: March 04, 2021, 03:27:21 pm »

Sorry, hopefully this doesn't devolve into a side-track, but: What episode of Captain Underpants is that? My kid has almost all of them and I have no idea what you're talking about there.  Unless by "lead" you mean "some character whose parents are not mentioned often"?

Wikipedia sez:

Quote
In October 2015, the 12th book received controversy due to a reference to Harold being gay. Some elementary schools have banned the book for this reason.

Apparently they see their future selves or something and Harold is married to a man:

Quote
After the original duo travel to the future, they find their others selves to have become graphic novel creators. Future Yesterday George married a woman named Lisa and had two children named Meena and Nik. Future Yesterday Harold married a man named Billy and had adopted twin children named Owen and Kei.

(Note that I know nothing about these books.)

Edit: I should note that other books in the series were challenged for "encouraging disruptive behavior."
Logged

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
  • This text isn't very personal.
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44193 on: March 04, 2021, 03:46:54 pm »

Ahhh... ok yeah. I thought you were talking about George or Harold's parents and was massively confused.

Back to regularly-scheduled Ameripol...
Logged
This product contains deoxyribonucleic acid which is known to the State of California to cause cancer, reproductive harm, and other health issues.

Vector

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44194 on: March 04, 2021, 03:50:43 pm »

Ahhh... ok yeah. I thought you were talking about George or Harold's parents and was massively confused.

Back to regularly-scheduled Ameripol...

Yeah, I must have misremembered something ... I thought it was one of their parents... anyway :)
Logged
"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

scriver

  • Bay Watcher
  • City streets ain't got much pity
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44195 on: March 04, 2021, 04:21:43 pm »

did nobody think my librarian joke was funny
Logged
Love, scriver~

Lord Shonus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angle of Death
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44196 on: March 04, 2021, 05:01:27 pm »


Fahrenheit 451 only appeared, at a quick scan, in the 2000-2009 top 100 (maybe too much competition?) but Brave New World was in all lists (IIRC) and 1984 in at least two of them.  (Banned by the USSR, naturally, but I know in the '80s, and probably at other times, 1984 was attacked in the US as being pro-Communist, which tells you something about those that would consider this.)


Eric Blair (who wrote under the name George Orwell) was a card-carrying Communist. Animal Farm and 1984 were not anti-Communist works, they were anti-Stalinist ones (as well as a heavy dose of anti-Fascism in 1984). It has been a long time since I read the latter (and I keep mixing it up with Farenheit 451 in my head), so I don't know if there's textual support for a pro-communist reading, but it could have got that label just from the author.
Logged
On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44197 on: March 04, 2021, 05:29:45 pm »

The class dynamics described in 1984 are extremely pro-communism, yes. That's why Winston Smith's rebellion as part of the feted-but-surveilled Outer Party is futile, and only an uprising of the proles could ever end the Party's dominance.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Lord Shonus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angle of Death
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44198 on: March 04, 2021, 05:32:40 pm »

That makes quite a bit of sense.
Logged
On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44199 on: March 04, 2021, 06:02:41 pm »


Fahrenheit 451 only appeared, at a quick scan, in the 2000-2009 top 100 (maybe too much competition?) but Brave New World was in all lists (IIRC) and 1984 in at least two of them.  (Banned by the USSR, naturally, but I know in the '80s, and probably at other times, 1984 was attacked in the US as being pro-Communist, which tells you something about those that would consider this.)


Eric Blair (who wrote under the name George Orwell) was a card-carrying Communist. Animal Farm and 1984 were not anti-Communist works, they were anti-Stalinist ones (as well as a heavy dose of anti-Fascism in 1984). It has been a long time since I read the latter (and I keep mixing it up with Farenheit 451 in my head), so I don't know if there's textual support for a pro-communist reading, but it could have got that label just from the author.

I was mostly comparing and contrasting the Soviet ban vs. the Reds Under Your Beds ban.  It wasn't considered a very good advert for what the USSR became, nor apparently was it considered anti-USSR.  In reality, both ends didn't like how it blamed the problems, whether under the relatively benign and largely unprejudicial oppression of the original 'royal' regime of the farmer or the increasingly self-serving 'directorate' of the autocratic governing class, on disrupting the briefly almost utopian socialist period. Its problematic message was "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice", in that sweet spot that authoritarians - according to their own flavour - disliked.

Blair pretty much lost his faith (but maybe not hope) in the Left during his time in Spain, and turned to the Authoritatian axis as something to rail against, rather than the Right.
Logged

Lord Shonus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angle of Death
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44200 on: March 04, 2021, 06:19:18 pm »

I don't know where you get that from. He abandoned multiple political groups because they weren't Left-leaning enough for him, and by all accounts was a rabid socialist until his death.
Logged
On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

thompson

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44201 on: March 04, 2021, 06:39:40 pm »

Regarding the right’s aversion to “cancel culture”, I’d say it’s a reaction to their sense of marginalisation. Why they feel marginalised is a little more complex, but I suspect social psychology plays a big role here.

For anyone who isn’t familiar with it, I’d highly recommend reading up on in-group/outsider biases and psychology. In a sense, conservatives are conservatives because they identify as conservatives. People feel a strong sense of affinity to others they feel are in their “group”, and an aversion to outsiders. So, if a group member comes under attack from an outsider, we instinctively rush to their defence. Insiders can also include people who have been dead for a very, very long time.

Self-identifying Republicans have the misfortune of identifying with a party that’s backed more than a few dead horses* over the years, to the point where they’ve lost so much credibility they’re now exposed to open ridicule. But because the human brain strongly encourages social cohesion over all else, it’s hard for them to jump the aisle so they double down instead and keep digging.

This is an inherent trait of humans, and has nothing to do with conservatism, although conservatives do have the disadvantage of identifying with past pioneers and leaders and whatnot who were pretty racist by modern standards (even amongst conservatives themselves). Democrats, on the other hand, have plenty of thoughtless reactionaries as well, but a lot of that knee-jerk reaction is directed towards legitimate Republican delusions so it doesn’t look as bad. Had history unfolded differently, with Democrats retaining the South and holding closer to their blue collar union supporters, we’d have a very different political landscape today.

An excellent counter example is conservatism in Japan. They have a ton of baggage with their historical animosity with Korea and China, but you don’t see the anti-intellectualism or anti-environmentalism you get with US conservatism. European conservatism is different again.

To put it another way, a lot of politics is driven by reactionaries reacting to reactionaries on the other side, with a few thoughtful people shuffling between the camps trying to fight the tide.

*Incomplete list of dead horses championed by the Republican Party and their associates:
- Climate denialism
- Biblical literalism and the evolution wars
- Trumpism
- Confederacy apologetics

... I tried to exclude things that the Democrats were also complicit in, such as the reckless deregulation that enabled the opioid crisis. This left the list a lot shorter than I was initially expecting. Still, they’ve managed to score some pretty big duds that fail in clear, obvious and objective ways, unlike some of the more nefarious duds with bipartisan or exclusive Democrat support. So, their failures are very obvious, which no doubt adds to their anxiety and cognitive dissonance.
Logged

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44202 on: March 04, 2021, 08:29:47 pm »

I don't know where you get that from. He abandoned multiple political groups because they weren't Left-leaning enough for him, and by all accounts was a rabid socialist until his death.
Socialist, yes, and he (as part of POUM) was denounced as overly Trotskyist and thus 'essentially fascist' in that good old mixed up way that the factionalism of the era. Whether that was fair, accurate or even honest a label to cast is... probably not relevent.

He was perhaps more likely considered a democratic socialist, which is pretty much not what you might think of as Communism. I'm not sure I could explain (what I understand of) his developing views of the potential English Socialism in modern British terms (Corbynite? ...maybe, maybe not, as he became a sort of anti-revolutionary that may not have played well with that) but it'd be even harder to describe in US terms apart from being "Other" on anything but the most nuanced kind of multichoice poll.


To my understanding, naturally. A product of his time, and his experiences. And me a product of mine, and my own. He knew a lot more about authoritarianism (and decided he didn't like it, at home or abroad) and I can't say I've been under anything like the same pressures, whether being the privileged authority figure itself, out east; fighting for principles but being ideologically betrayed; sitting under the flightplans of hostile bombers; working at the BBC... etc.
Logged

martinuzz

  • Bay Watcher
  • High dwarf
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44203 on: March 04, 2021, 10:12:18 pm »

did nobody think my librarian joke was funny
I know how it feels
Logged
Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

anewaname

  • Bay Watcher
  • The mattock... My choice for problem solving.
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44204 on: March 05, 2021, 12:02:47 am »

did nobody think my librarian joke was funny
I know how it feels
It is a talk about books, many associated with intensely personal childhood memories. You can expect some "instantly-enraged-or-engaged" responses similar to those at holiday dinners with siblings "I learned and grew from that book! You defile my memories and sense of identity! That is the only book I recall my father reading to me!"

My response was, "Huck Finn was what??? ... Hrrrrm... maybe it was..."

My mother once said that the task given to every Ukrainian is, paraphrasing, to unscrew the world, so that’s what I’m gonna try to do.
This is gold.
Logged
Quote from: dragdeler
There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.
Pages: 1 ... 2945 2946 [2947] 2948 2949 ... 3566