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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4237364 times)

Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41880 on: November 11, 2020, 11:31:47 am »

This is one proposal for removing the UKs House of Lords with a democratically elected one.
Look at the democratically bi-cameral bit of the US government. Two pots of populism either fighting each other to a standstill when directly opposing each other or treading heavily on the gas when everyone aligns.

The staid non-populist[1] nature of the Lords acts to (try to) sanity-check[2] the government in the Commons.


The UK system of leader-election is stupider than the US, one might say, in that we don't elect our leader, mostly. (And I'm talking the PM, not HMQ.) We basically have an EC system in which we elect local MPs who then put their stated leader into Number 10 if they are in the majority opinion. In the US the voter can (and apparently has) supported one party for representative purposes but ask for a differently-aligned HoG. In the UK the two (all of the elected dominance) are co-dependent. Which makes for less lame-duck PM but no subtelty (in my experience, this led to Cameron being forced out of leadership by referendum alone, as a surprise bonus moment of public whimsy where normally only Conservative Party members got to directly vote for/against the Tory leadership, and conservatism nearly toppled or propped up by the (un)popularity of Corbyn amongst the left-leaning centrists).

But which bits to bring in from across the Atlantic, in either direction, to get a proper system (ignoring PR and its cousins, but we're once-bitten/twice-shy on the idea of the inevitable coalitions) I couldn't say...


[1] Yes, there are many political appointments, but sheer populism is much diluted by tenure (even these days) and the mass of the current membership that the few inductees are drip-fed into. Even the Hereditary Lords (reduced in recent times) have modern-looking people who are neither utterly staid traditionalists nor the current zeitgeist-surfers who have lucked upon riding the current populist tidal-wave.

[2] From amongst the appointed Lords there is a variety of professional and social experience in all kinds of useful fields and backgrounds. Including Politics, where past part-alignments actually seem to mean very little.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 11:38:51 am by Starver »
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bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41881 on: November 11, 2020, 11:59:03 am »

Trump stops being president on inauguration day, election or no election. That's what the constitution says -- when appointed by election, the president will serve a term from this date to this date. A president cannot continue to be president by default in the case of a problem with an election. There will be a president pro tempore, I think speaker of the house.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41882 on: November 11, 2020, 12:12:13 pm »

The constitution is a piece of paper, it cannot physically make anyone do anything.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41883 on: November 11, 2020, 12:18:24 pm »

But paper-cuts are painful...
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feelotraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41884 on: November 11, 2020, 01:15:51 pm »

The purpose of elections is to give the veneer of legitimacy.  The democracy is very thin in some places.

Quote
The rot runs deep. A country that proclaims itself the greatest democracy in the world has an awful lot of work to do.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/07/us-democracy-trump-election-gerrymandering
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bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41885 on: November 11, 2020, 01:28:29 pm »

The constitution is a piece of paper, it cannot physically make anyone do anything.

The constitution is just a written physical manifestation of tradition and norms, which are very powerful. Britain has a whole host of common laws that aren't written down but are routinely followed.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41886 on: November 11, 2020, 01:44:17 pm »

The constitution is a piece of paper, it cannot physically make anyone do anything.

The constitution is just a written physical manifestation of tradition and norms, which are very powerful. Britain has a whole host of common laws that aren't written down but are routinely followed.

I dunno, I see repubs doing a whole lot of shrugging when their fellow repub blatently ignores those powerful traditions and norms.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41887 on: November 11, 2020, 01:54:38 pm »

The purpose of elections is to give the veneer of legitimacy.  The democracy is very thin in some places.

Quote
The rot runs deep. A country that proclaims itself the greatest democracy in the world has an awful lot of work to do.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/07/us-democracy-trump-election-gerrymandering

Why is it these articles always paint things as "broken" which were intentionally designed that way, with known concessions?  Yes Senate is intentionally to represent States, not population.  I don't know if that's "broken" but it's intentionally not supposed to be population-weighted!  The House is supposed to represent population - and yes it probably needs to be adjusted a bit.  I personally do NOT want all branches of the government to be decided by popular vote.

How I would deal with gerrymandering: There is an inherent conflict between geographical representation (districts) and ideological representation (you may live in a 'red' area but have 'blue' philosophy).    About the only thing I can think of is that you split the houses in half; half is decided by geographical district voting and half is just proportionally decided based on total state breakdown.  So you have your "neighborhood" rep for your voice in if that highway should go through your local park or not, but you also have your "ideological" rep for social services or whatever.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41888 on: November 11, 2020, 02:16:49 pm »

Gerrymandering isn't just about neighbourhoods, though, but a complex mix'n'match designed to maximise a given representation.


e.g. three nominal areas based on fairly sane geographic proximity to some existing centres of population. One is largely Party A, for demographic reasons, one largely Party B, and the other is a toss-up for whatever reason.

Party A gets control and shuffles some of their supporting sub-areas from area A (not going to stop their wins) and/or B (they're never going to tip the balance against majority B) into A+B area, balancing with B-specific sub-areas of A+B being reassigned to the A area (where they threaten A's dominance very little) and/or B area (where it's a lost cause for A and more Bs don't do anything).

Now A has their sure-thing area (their happy supporters) a better-than-evens certainty (which they can fund in ways to help their image) and a dump-zone for their opponents to stew in (can be left to rot, and/or residents demonised in the eyes of the other two rejigged areas so that "at least you're not living in Area B" satisfies anyone still on the fence).


As soon as something causes Party B to gain power, despite this, any opportunity they take to rezone areas is not going to be used to re-rationalise into the A/B/toss-up original state. Shuffle and smudge and repeat.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41889 on: November 11, 2020, 02:44:22 pm »

Well yes exactly, gerrymandering is about using "geography" as an excuse to rearrange geographic boundaries to change proportions of ideological grouping.

Any time you have a non-uniform distribution of ideology, it is theoretically possible to gerrymander.
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Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41890 on: November 11, 2020, 02:44:44 pm »

coalition govt would be an amazing thing in the US.

Imagine--- the legislature *HAS* to cooperate.

It would be amazing to see.
I agree
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 02:49:32 pm by Duuvian »
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41891 on: November 11, 2020, 02:46:17 pm »

coalition govt would be an amazing thing in the US.

Imagine--- the legislature *HAS* to cooperate.

It would be amazing to see.
Quoted for truth

I would enjoy watching McConnell and Pelosi spontaneously combust.
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feelotraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41892 on: November 11, 2020, 03:06:09 pm »

Why is it these articles always paint things as "broken" which were intentionally designed that way, with known concessions?

I think your criticism of the article falls flat. In its own words:
Quote
By taking advantage of American democracy’s design flaws, Republicans secured an edge.

The larger question is how a democracy can be designed (or reformed) so that the real interests of its constituents are accurately embodied,  Gerrymandering is merely one mechansim used to further the entrenchment of aristocratic elites.  FPTP is another.

Last I checked there weren't specifically 2 preformed red vs. blue ideologies.  Even playing into the fossilised/antiquated party system, where are all the green and yellow (libertarian) representatives?  (To take the smallest step within the bounds of specifically representative democracy.)

And yes, I am deliberately just dipping the toe into the water.
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Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41893 on: November 11, 2020, 03:27:53 pm »

coalition govt would be an amazing thing in the US.

Imagine--- the legislature *HAS* to cooperate.

It would be amazing to see.
Quoted for truth

I would enjoy watching McConnell and Pelosi spontaneously combust.

I also think it would reduce the liklihood that a demagogue arises to lead the symbol of democracy.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 03:32:21 pm by Duuvian »
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41894 on: November 11, 2020, 03:42:30 pm »

Well yes exactly, gerrymandering is about using "geography" as an excuse to rearrange geographic boundaries to change proportions of ideological grouping.
Those quotes are doing a lot of work, though.

If the original boundaries were established by using handy waterways and watersheds as limits between township groupings ("everything west of the main creek and east of the ridge, as far downstream as the minor creek from the western dale") then that might look a bit jiggly because of the geography/geology being a bit jiggly. The township that grows up about the main creek, both sides, might be on the main portage route into the next area and make a well-appointed trading town that spans the originally conceived district boundary, the mining camps/towns up the side-valley may boom and bust as various factors require and at times vastly outnumber the main-creek dragstrip area. There are socio-geographical reasons for shifting boundaries as relative fortunes change, when it's not clear why houses on opposite sides of a fordable creek aren't in the same zone, or why settlements part way up on opposite shoulders of the ridgeline are.

But if it looks like you threw darts blindfold at a pre-cut patchwork quilt and chose to 'connect' small bits (including enclaving, exclaving and corner-touching-at-best membership of the larger pattern) according to just which ones you like the look of once you peek again, then you're probably dealing with random "geography" such as "the eastern fence of old McMurphy's cornfield, cut through the Maple View estate on the line of the old drove-road, head for the pine stand above the old quarry, round the quarry, back to the drove road, back down that road except for a bit of the meadow where McMurphy used to graze his cows before they eventually built the grainstore there (now a retail park), across the road up to the old Van Der Waal estate cum retirement chalet community, then straight back down the same avenue (now lined with warehouses, not included in this zone), and anothe bulge to exclude the old duckpond..."

That's not how it's justified, but how it ends up. Physical geography is meaningless except by coincidental accident or as a remnant of a now irrelevent stakeholding that used possibly long-obscured features to define its extent. Social geography is perhaps a cause, but equally likely an effect. And when you reboundary areas to dilute and strengthen elective powers you're necessarily putting people who don't 'belong' in with people they don't even fit with, just as an excuse to (dis)empower one or other grouping.


What maybe is needed is an Algorithm.  Use it to completely re(re)zone areas to some suitably minimum boundary-length-to-area ratio, lowest combined RMS-persondistance from the central point of the respective area, equal(ish) population, etc. Perhaps prefer (but not rely upon) watercourse/watershed/highway/etc boundaries (TBD) with only NS/EW joins between such stretches that don't otherwise connect. Run it five times in front of various allied party observers from outside the area with only physical cues (physical geography, basic population information but not density and definitely not voting trends) and take suggestions as to how to re-weight the parameters, until they are all happy it's not likely to go crazy, then run it a sixth time in front of the local officials "for real", to reveal the new political map that they'll have to work with.
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