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[hector13]

If Trump publicly took the pandemic as seriously as he appeared to in private, as per the Woodward recordings, you’re damn right there would be a material difference in the situation.

Trump is a hugely influential person, the fact he has not been wearing a mask or social distancing or anything approaching sensible has resulted in millions of people engaging in absolutely ridiculous behaviour and spreading a virus which needs a host to continue existing.

Fine, people are idiots, but they don’t need an arch-idiot encouraging them to continue being idiots.

[scriver]

Portugal decriminalised consumption of drugs in 2000, they’re not doing too bad.

Compare with Sweden that has under roughly the same period gone from having a very lenient rehabilitation focused stance to a much more punitive stance and have very bad results

[Maximum Spin]

If Trump publicly took the pandemic as seriously as he appeared to in private, as per the Woodward recordings, you’re damn right there would be a material difference in the situation.

Trump is a hugely influential person, the fact he has not been wearing a mask or social distancing or anything approaching sensible has resulted in millions of people engaging in absolutely ridiculous behaviour and spreading a virus which needs a host to continue existing.

Fine, people are idiots, but they don’t need an arch-idiot encouraging them to continue being idiots.

I really don't believe that many people look to Trump as a role model specifically, but all right, I acknowledge that indirect actions could have had an effect. I just meant that there's no (Constitutional) policy that gets you out of a mass epidemic of a totally novel virus for which nobody has resistance or even knows how it spreads yet.

[MorleyDev]

Yeah it's not like he could have helped negotiate and encourage red states to bring about measures that would curtail infection rates like mandatory masks or lockdowns anything, and effective financial support packages for citizens that meant areas that couldn't re-open due to restrictions and lockdowns wouldn't need to lay-off employees. That'd just be a crazy thing for a President to do, right? -_-

We know measures that could be taken were recommended to him, and we know he didn't take those measures and instead downplayed the virus and flat-out mocked those who suggested the need for those measures. These are all documented facts. These aren't indirect consequences of a role model, these are someone not doing their job as a head of state and knowingly allowing more of their citizens they are supposed to be in charge of the safety of to die than would happen with the measures suggested by scientific advisers.

And we know these measures would work to bring down infections and deaths because it's been observed that when countries bring in those measures, their infection rates and deaths go down to levels below those being seen in the USA, something that isn't even known-via-hindsight because by the time it started to spike in the USA they'd already been able to observe the virus spread and the measures taken to control that spread in Asian and European countries.

The Republican party, lead by Donald Trump and his direction, did not take the national or regional action needed in the USA and actively tried to suppress efforts to take those actions (mandatory masks, regional lockdowns, police powers to enforce lockdowns) at a government level and tried to get the USA 'opened up again' as quickly as possible.

[Maximum Spin]

We know measures that could be taken were recommended to him, and we know he didn't take those measures and instead downplayed the virus and flat-out mocked those who suggested the need for those measures. These are all documented facts. These aren't indirect consequences of a role model, these are someone not doing their job as a head of state and knowingly allowing more of their citizens they are supposed to be in charge of the safety of to die than would happen with the measures suggested by scientific advisers.

What measures do you have in mind? Lockdowns, quarantines, contact tracing, mask mandates, presumably?

It is unconstitutional for a United States President to take any of those actions.

The blame for those things lies at the feet of Congress. You can say that it belongs to the Republicans, "the party of Trump", but it is still their power to do so, not his.

[MorleyDev]

He's the figurehead of the Republican Party, the one setting it's direction and the one with the political power in his hands to push them towards enacting them things. Saying it's not his responsibility is just plain wrong when he actively took steps to encourage states to lift lockdowns as quickly as possible. Pushing for, negotiating for, are those his responsibility as 'captain of the ship'. Which is what the role of president is in the USA, beyond merely the constitutional power of veto and pushing emergency measures to congress: To be the coordinated, organizer and direction steerer. Commander-in-Chief, Captain of the Ship, why do you think they get called those things?

And he didn't just hit an iceberg, he actively set course for it then fought with people trying to turn the ship away from it.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Unconstitutional? This is exactly the kind of crisis that the office of the President exists to deal with. Would he have had to coordinate with the governors, get their consent for certain actions? Yes, absolutely. But the President's national security authority absolutely carries weight here, just as it does when a hurricane flattens a city. He certainly doesn't seem to have any problems when it comes to ordering soldiers onto the streets over the objections of a governor.

Furthermore, Trump's lack of leadership was aped by Republican governors and the public across the nation, exacerbating the crisis. Trump and McConnell together were the legal fulcrum that the pandemic has occurred on - their mutual failure is the single greatest one of the past four years.

[Starver]

I really don't believe that many people look to Trump as a role model specifically,

There are a lot of people who say and/or act as if they do.

If they are telling the truth, I don't understand them. If they are faking it[1], I don't understand them.

This isn't every Trump supporter, and will be less in proportion of Republicans in general. We see a lot of them in the news (also a lot of the so-called-'left' who aren't just standing there in dignity but going a little crazy in their own way), but this is because people not being extreme isn't worth the bandwidth.

This may not be you at all either, but the optics aint great either way that you cannot acknowledge what can be plainly seen.


[1] Maybe to justify their unshackeling from the norms they don't feel like obeying.

[Maximum Spin]

There are a lot of people who say and/or act as if they do.

If they are telling the truth, I don't understand them. If they are faking it[1], I don't understand them.

This isn't every Trump supporter, and will be less in proportion of Republicans in general. We see a lot of them in the news (also a lot of the so-called-'left' who aren't just standing there in dignity but going a little crazy in their own way), but this is because people not being extreme isn't worth the bandwidth.

I legitimately don't know anyone like that. I don't, of course, have any interest in watching the news.

This may not be you at all either, but the optics aint great either way that you cannot acknowledge what can be plainly seen.

I'm not even a "Trump supporter". I only voted for the guy because I think his victory is marginally less likely to lead to a civil war, and honestly, I'm fine with civil war anyway, I just don't want to personally act to bring it closer.

[da_nang]

We know measures that could be taken were recommended to him, and we know he didn't take those measures and instead downplayed the virus and flat-out mocked those who suggested the need for those measures. These are all documented facts. These aren't indirect consequences of a role model, these are someone not doing their job as a head of state and knowingly allowing more of their citizens they are supposed to be in charge of the safety of to die than would happen with the measures suggested by scientific advisers.

What measures do you have in mind? Lockdowns, quarantines, contact tracing, mask mandates, presumably?

It is unconstitutional for a United States President to take any of those actions.

The blame for those things lies at the feet of Congress. You can say that it belongs to the Republicans, "the party of Trump", but it is still their power to do so, not his.

He could start with the bare minimum of doing nothing and letting CDC handle it, not disbanding the pandemic teams and systems put in place by previous administrations, not spreading dangerous misinformation, and not fucking up the supply chain and distribution of PPE.

Those are well within his powers as POTUS.

[Rolan7]

Obamacare, the New Deal, and The Patriot Act were not constitutional actions of the President (especially that last one, hoo!) and yet we rightly associate them with presidents instead of the legislatures which officially voted them in.  Presidents direct legislation.

I don't know where to begin with the idea that Trump didn't inspire anti-mask behaviors in his followers.  I do know that many wore masks anyway, because it's the common sense response to a pandemic, but I'm not sure where anti-mask behavior is supposed to have originated if not with his constant petty attacks on the wearing of masks.

This wasn't some unusual phenomenon like anti-vaxing, this was the *default* and the behavior persisted even as Republican leaders died from it.  Because he pushed it hard.  Because to wear a mask shows personal "weakness" he could not afford as a fascist.

Trump also withheld federal aid along party lines and did his best to undermine blue governors but who's counting.  That's not even technically one of his many, many crimes which he declared himself immune to prosecution from.

To clarify on that:  I'm not technically afraid of Trump pulling out a gun and shooting me on an avenue.  I'm afraid of him ignoring subpoenas without consequence.  Which he DID.  Literal roman emperor shit, and if that doesn't bother you it's because you *think* he's on your side.
He's not.  I am.  I'm not the one trying to hurt you, here.

I'm not even a "Trump supporter". I only voted for the guy because I think his victory is marginally less likely to lead to a civil war, and honestly, I'm fine with civil war anyway, I just don't want to personally act to bring it closer.

Okay screwit - you called me dumb, I'm throwing that back at you.  We're even, no hard feelings.

[Maximum Spin]

Obamacare, the New Deal, and The Patriot Act were not constitutional actions of the President (especially that last one, hoo!) and yet we rightly associate them with presidents instead of the legislatures which officially voted them in.  Presidents direct legislation.

I mean, I really don't? The Presidents in question supported those things, sure, but I blame the legislatures. Certainly at least for Obamacare, the only one that happened during my adulthood.

To clarify on that:  I'm not technically afraid of Trump pulling out a gun and shooting me on an avenue.  I'm afraid of him ignoring subpoenas without consequence.  Which he DID.  Literal roman emperor shit, and if that doesn't bother you it's because you *think* he's on your side.

Oh, no, that doesn't bother me because I think everyone should be able to ignore subpoenas. Anarchist, remember?

[Starver]

and honestly, I'm fine with civil war anyway

Yeah. This is part of it. The 'table flipper' attitude.

[Maximum Spin]

and honestly, I'm fine with civil war anyway

Yeah. This is part of it. The 'table flipper' attitude.

I don't want to flip any tables, I just don't care if tables get flipped. The flippedness state of tables is a perfect irrelevancy to me. This is what is meant by 'ataraxia'.

ETA: I really do have to strongly reassert that a Trump victory was less likely to lead to civil war, though. If you don't believe me, I am watching people plan their insurrections in various places right now because they believe Biden is currently stealing the election.

[Starver]

What you're saying is that the people more likely to start a civil war if they lose therefore have more intrinsic right to be awarded any uncertain win.

I see absolutely no problem with that(!)