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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4224122 times)

Flying Dice

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39615 on: September 23, 2020, 01:20:47 pm »

Fundamentally, the aggregation of humans into increasingly larger groups seems to be more a product of cultural-technological pressures than of true choice. Towns and cities are a consequence of agriculture. People suddenly became static rather than dynamic, and being tied down to land and permanent structures is risky. Larger social groups help mitigate that risk both actively (a larger group to repel threats) and reactively (more resources and labor to recover from disasters). That led the the whole food surplus -> specialization of labor chain of consequence that we're all familiar with, which continues down into modernity. Fundamentally, we have organized ourselves into large coherent nations not because we desire it, but because these large cooperative institutions carry ten thousand years of cultural inertia, and because they have become a sort of prisoner's dilemma variant -- any nation which willingly and deliberately fragmented would be consumed both culturally and physically by its neighbors or by an authoritarian successor state. This is also, incidentally, why libertarianism, anarchism, communism, and related ideologies are fundamentally flawed: most of humanity's recorded history is of increasingly large populations submitting willingly to the tyranny of the few.

We don't group together because we want to, but because all of our ancestors have and because we feel it's necessary to do so for protection from abuse by other groups and internal tyrants.

--

Look at it from another angle. The fundamental issue of breathing room can theoretically be solved by population control, but that is already in opposition to free will and to an extent human nature. The alternative is unlimited growth -- if every single human grouping incapable of cohabiting a space with another is capable of moving outward into their own space, that vastly reduces social friction because nobody is forced to live with people they are fundamentally incompatible with. That's one of several reasons why the development of a true spacefaring human civilization is a necessity. Not an "Earth Federation" or an interplanetary hegemony of any other stripe, but simply a level of technology in which life in and travel through interplanetary and ultimately interstellar space is a solved problem and trivially inexpensive.

Even setting aside the potential for functionally infinite living space if we crack the problems with long-term habitation of deep space and start building O'Neill habitats everywhere, the sheer number of potentially habitable planets in our galaxy alone pushes the problem so far down the road that it's more likely to be solved by natural evolution or bioengineering than for it to recur.

Population control is a temporary solution that should only really be employed until expansion is a realistic option.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39616 on: September 23, 2020, 01:24:28 pm »

The issue, is that our understanding of physics says that the diaspora you envision is not feasible. It requires too much energy.

(the perfect authoritarian, which excises all opposing views but its own, and thus ensures monocultural sterility, and thus denies all source of conflict on that scale, however-- is achievable NOW. China is working on it, right now.)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 01:27:27 pm by wierd »
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39617 on: September 23, 2020, 01:28:18 pm »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:49:05 pm by dragdeler »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39618 on: September 23, 2020, 01:29:30 pm »

But out of nurture not nature, nature tells us all (at varying degrees of intensity) to eat, sleep and fuck, and that's about it.
That is absolutely not true and decades of neurology and psychology and sociology have told us otherwise.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39619 on: September 23, 2020, 01:32:12 pm »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:49:08 pm by dragdeler »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39620 on: September 23, 2020, 01:36:03 pm »

Sure, I'd like to see the control sample....  ::)
I take it you are not familiar with how these kinds of studies are done. It is absolutely possible to do a controlled study on humans, such as twin studies, which are highly reliable.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39621 on: September 23, 2020, 01:37:32 pm »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:49:12 pm by dragdeler »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39622 on: September 23, 2020, 01:39:21 pm »

Which is why all your test subjects were nurtured, very good!
That's not how it works, though.
These are... these are solved problems which researchers have understood for literal decades. Quite frankly, I don't think you are qualified to make this complaint.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39623 on: September 23, 2020, 01:39:28 pm »

Not all twin studies were.... Ethical.


I will leave that on the table, and give it the dirty look it deserves. 

(this is a rebuttle to the current BeggingTheQuestion issue of "So they were all nurtured!" line of rhetoric.)
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39624 on: September 23, 2020, 01:40:08 pm »

Not all twin studies were.... Ethical.


I will leave that on the table, and give it the dirty look it deserves.
Scientific ethics is just an excuse for not trying hard enough!
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39625 on: September 23, 2020, 01:44:35 pm »

Don't get me wrong;  Inconvenient truths, are often the most important ones.

And nothing is more inconvenient, than being shown that your sense of ethics is arbitrary, and having it proven to you.


I prefer to adhere to a more utilitarian sense of ethical conduct-- The choices that tabulate into the least number of complications and undesirable consequences is the preferred choice, because of this set of features.  It assures maximal utility is attained, with the least deficit, and is the most optimal.

Where I draw the line, is in asserting that this is 'Good', or in asserting that it "should" be that way.  Anything based on desire, should not be conjoined with "should".
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39626 on: September 23, 2020, 01:47:33 pm »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:49:16 pm by dragdeler »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39627 on: September 23, 2020, 02:03:21 pm »

Don't get me wrong;  Inconvenient truths, are often the most important ones.

And nothing is more inconvenient, than being shown that your sense of ethics is arbitrary, and having it proven to you.


I prefer to adhere to a more utilitarian sense of ethical conduct-- The choices that tabulate into the least number of complications and undesirable consequences is the preferred choice, because of this set of features.  It assures maximal utility is attained, with the least deficit, and is the most optimal.

Where I draw the line, is in asserting that this is 'Good', or in asserting that it "should" be that way.  Anything based on desire, should not be conjoined with "should".
I'm more of a Candide partisan. One must cultivate one's garden.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39628 on: September 23, 2020, 02:06:09 pm »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:49:19 pm by dragdeler »
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39629 on: September 23, 2020, 03:00:19 pm »

Holy cow - I've been so busy today, I've missed out in all the fun!

(I haven't disappeared - but I will probably not be able to contribute or meddle further in the current line of discussion - I'm slammed from work for the next few days).
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