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[Gentlefish]

Of course! I'm always happy to engage.

Understand, though, that I partake of the mindset that police officers enforce the status quo through state-sanctioned violence. All Cops Are Bad, that is.

My father being an officer made this hard to reconcile, but I've come to terms with it in the sense it's the use of law enforcement to, well, enforce systemic oppression of the lower class and minorities rather than all officers actually being bad people.

We need peace keepers, absolutely. But not how it's structured today. The police force is just a tool of the wealthy.

[nenjin]

at any cost.

Funny, this is exactly what nice old religious white folks ended up saying about gay marriage. It has to be stopped _at any cost_. Including continuing to vote for pedophiles, racists and lunatics for office, because they may be pieces of shit but at least they're enforcing their preferred brand of politics.

I swear, the left has become just as crazed as the Christian Apocalyptic Doom cults. Everyone thinks the end is nigh unless they do something drastic, and consequences be damned as long as "we win."

[MrRoboto75]

One of the few benefits of all this is that we can see which of our congresspeople are fascists and grifters. Steve King, for example.

Watch them get reelected.

[Dunamisdeos]

Of course! I'm always happy to engage.

Understand, though, that I partake of the mindset that police officers enforce the status quo through state-sanctioned violence. All Cops Are Bad, that is.

My father being an officer made this hard to reconcile, but I've come to terms with it in the sense it's the use of law enforcement to, well, enforce systemic oppression of the lower class and minorities rather than all officers actually being bad people.

We need peace keepers, absolutely. But not how it's structured today. The police force is just a tool of the wealthy.

I can agree in that the police force by it's nature does enforce the will and laws of those in power, and that the police in America end up being routinely unnecessarily brutal as a result. America has a problem with the wealthy wielding extrajudicial power. Therefore so do the police.

It's important to remember that there are officers who don't engage in this behavior. My father-in-law was a police officers and he's about as  nonviolent as they come by nature. The existence of "good" cops doesn't mean we don't have widespread systemic problems resulting in a violent police force.

In regards to the police specifically in the recent Portland situation, they were reported to be quite adept at preventing violence rather than instigating it. At least I haven't seen anything that reported any untoward actions on their part.

[nenjin]

Antifa engages in self-defensive violence against fascists.

That implies fascists attacked them first and they responded with violence to defend their own lives. That's not what's happening by and large. Antifa is taking "the struggle" and using it as a pretext to violence. So anyone anywhere they disagree with is, by virtue of being part of the struggle, a target. That's my problem with the whole self-defense argument. It's not self-defense when you're attacking someone because of someone else the group they may or may not belong to oppressed or assaulted anyone else. That's not self-defense. Anymore than the IRA blowing shit up was self-defense.

And while it may give them a persecution complex, it drives them underground and out of the public eye. Where they used to be, before our current president was elected.

No it doesn't. They don't go underground anymore. It hits the news, someone with money and influence goes "Hey, you're topical now", they disseminate the news that radical left thugs attacked people expressing their opinion (whether that's true or not) and some average Joe or Jane goes "Hey.....that could be me one day! Maybe the Left really is dangerous/hypocritical/full of shit." It just raises their profile and makes them more sympathetic in the eyes of people who may have previously been neutral on the whole thing. The same way the KKK fucking with people made the public more sympathetic to the victim's cause, and helped drive that shit underground, the same thing is now happening in the opposite direction.

[Naturegirl1999]

Random chime in- this discussion is great and is very civil. Keep it up! You all are doing great.

Agreed. This is the first time this is talked about without insults being hurled at each other. I only wish I could contribute in this but I haven’t been catching up lately

[Trolldefender99]

My problem with antifa is it shows democrats will stoop to the level of trump white supremacists using the same racist tactics. Antifa will attack blacks, asians anyone that they disagree with...effectively making them racist despite them saying they aren't racist.

The way things are going, democrats are quickly becoming as bad as trump fanatics. And becoming nazis that they supposedly hate by hating jewish people. At this rate I may just not vote or do anything with politics in US cause its all propaganda on both sides, lies, hypocrisy and lots of racism and sexual offenders on both sides of the party line...the two party system is junk. Europe/australia has a far better party system where even small parties have a chance. In the US what is the point of all the parties? They can't do anything...literally they are useless and cause more problems than solve.

Maybe its always been like this, but both parties are just the same with the same racists and hateful people. Maybe thats just how the world is.

[Doomblade187]

It seems the consensus is leaning towards that Antifa in general is okay, so long as they don't initiate the violence.

Yo, Trolldefender, where do you get the Democrats hating Jewish people from? I ain't heard anything of that.

[Trolldefender99]

It seems the consensus is leaning towards that Antifa in general is okay, so long as they don't initiate the violence.

Yo, Trolldefender, where do you get the Democrats hating Jewish people from? I ain't heard anything of that.

Its becoming more common, though the hate is more toward israel but same thing. Its just disguised as hating israel but its obvious what its really about. Some congress people are involved in an organization that is anti-jew/israel and that organization support terrorism attacks on them saying they die for a good cause.

As for  antifa, it shows democrats support attacking anyone that doesn't support them, antifa has shown to attack people of color and minorities if they happen to support trump. And while I think its weird to support someone that is racist against "your" own people, that is still racist to attack asians and blacks and that is what democrats have shown to support. So both parties are literally the same.

[Trolldefender99]

The "funny" (it isn't) thing with being anti-israel (which many is cause they just hate jewish people) is hitler would have been anti-israel if it existed back then. Hitler hated all jewish people, so he'd have also hated israel. And trump hates jewish people, he has made many racist remarks against them amongst all his other racism. But then democrats also hate israel. A whole web of racists hate jewish people and israel, that while some may not like the country, many also just don't like the people inside the country. Hitler would sure be excited about that if he was around today.

[Naturegirl1999]

The way things are going, democrats are quickly becoming as bad as trump fanatics. And becoming nazis that they supposedly hate by hating jewish people. At this rate I may just not vote or do anything with politics in US cause its all propaganda on both sides, lies, hypocrisy and lots of racism and sexual offenders on both sides of the party line...the two party system is junk. Europe/australia has a far better party system where even small parties have a chance. In the US what is the point of all the parties? They can't do anything...literally they are useless and cause more problems than solve.

Maybe its always been like this, but both parties are just the same with the same racists and hateful people. Maybe that’s just how the world is.

With luck,more people will realize and vote for a third party. I wonder how many people simply don’t know third parties are a thing. If they were allowed debates, maybe things wouldn’t be as big of a problem. Everyone wants money and power, and what better way to keep power than to stop competition before it starts? It’s unfortunate. There was a time when third parties had ground, before the two main ones took over the media

[Gentlefish]

Heh, getting angry is bad for optics after all~ but I'd rather ideas stand on their own, in all honesty.

Antifa engages in self-defensive violence against fascists.

That implies fascists attacked them first and they responded with violence to defend their own lives. That's not what's happening by and large. Antifa is taking "the struggle" and using it as a pretext to violence. So anyone anywhere they disagree with is, by virtue of being part of the struggle, a target. That's my problem with the whole self-defense argument. It's not self-defense when you're attacking someone because of someone else the group they may or may not belong to oppressed or assaulted anyone else. That's not self-defense. Anymore than the IRA blowing shit up was self-defense.

It absolutely is self-defense. There's more violence than just physical violence. Misgendering, calling minorities slurs and harassing them, openly protesting the removal of statues that were put in place to remind said minorities that the South thinks they're less than human. These are all forms of violence.

"I wouldn't rape you, you're too ugly", Sargon of Akkad, UKIP member running for UK office. That's violence.

"If it weren't for rape or incest, society wouldn't exist", Steve King, Iowa Representative. That's absolutely violence.

TERFs are committing violence through erasure. There's a reason trans suicide rates are through the roof. And that's only for people who are out. Imagine how many trans people commit suicide without the world knowing their trans and being remembered as the very thing that drove them to kill themselves.

Steven Molyneux, Crowder, PragerU all commit violence by controlling the narrative, spinning truths and fabricating outright lies about the news and history.

And like I said in my previous post, law enforcement is state-sanctioned violence to keep the status quo and the people in power, in power. (I agree wholeheartedly, Dunamis. There are absolutely good people in the police force and it's 100% a systemic issue. Like I said, my own father was an officer. Hell, a negotiator and talked I don't know how many people out of suicide, or failed to. I'm glad he's retired now.)

The only way to change society that keeps the status quo (and indeed, is actively trying to regress society) through violence, is violence in kind.

Deplatforming is violence. twitter banning people from their site is violence. KKK and nazi rallies down main streets are violence.

Violence isn't just physical harm. It's much more than that.

Note, also, political violence. Running to put someone out of office, running smear campaigns, and committing character assassination are all also forms of violence. It removes agency from those attacked. Sometimes, for the greater good, that agency needs to be removed.

I much prefer elections, canvassing, and deplatforming over physical violence. But if it's necessary to keep a community safe, a community should be allowed to defend itself from the people who want those communities destroyed.
PPE: Wow how am I getting so passionate today.

My problem with antifa is it shows democrats will stoop to the level of trump white supremacists using the same racist tactics. Antifa will attack blacks, asians anyone that they disagree with...effectively making them racist despite them saying they aren't racist.

The way things are going, democrats are quickly becoming as bad as trump fanatics. And becoming nazis that they supposedly hate by hating jewish people. At this rate I may just not vote or do anything with politics in US cause its all propaganda on both sides, lies, hypocrisy and lots of racism and sexual offenders on both sides of the party line...the two party system is junk. Europe/australia has a far better party system where even small parties have a chance. In the US what is the point of all the parties? They can't do anything...literally they are useless and cause more problems than solve.

Maybe its always been like this, but both parties are just the same with the same racists and hateful people. Maybe thats just how the world is.

TBH the idea that democrats are Leftists and Antifa is laughable. The democrats are the conservative party of the US. The republicans are regressive.

As for "blacks, asians, anyone they disagree with" they're not attacking because of their skin color. You can be black and fascist. Jordan Lee Peterson, for example. That black Nazi lady as well. I forget her name.

As for the next election, I'm hoping for basically anyone that isn't Biden to rise to the top. Warren or Bernie would be preferable but I'm voting blue down the line. Trump called out one of my state's congresspeople so you know I'm voting against them. Election reform needs to happen, and it isn't happening under republicans.

pp-ppe: Trolldefender please. Being anti-Israel isn't anti-Jewish. Israel is the closest thing we have to an ethnostate right now. It's horrendous. It needs to change.

[Naturegirl1999]

The "funny" (it isn't) thing with being anti-israel (which many is cause they just hate jewish people) is hitler would have been anti-israel if it existed back then. Hitler hated all jewish people, so he'd have also hated israel. And trump hates jewish people, he has made many racist remarks against them amongst all his other racism. But then democrats also hate israel. A whole web of racists hate jewish people and israel, that while some may not like the country, many also just don't like the people inside the country. Hitler would sure be excited about that if he was around today.

There is another reason to hate Israel, like what they are doing to Palestinians, attacking citizens using a terrorist group as justification. Even if there are armed groups, that doesn’t justify attacked no Palestinian citizens. There is a possibility that some of the armed groups formed in response to Israeli attacks.

[Dunamisdeos]

With luck,more people will realize and vote for a third party. I wonder how many people simply don’t know third parties are a thing. If they were allowed debates, maybe things wouldn’t be as big of a problem. Everyone wants money and power, and what better way to keep power than to stop competition before it starts? It’s unfortunate. There was a time when third parties had ground, before the two main ones took over the media

The problem is that third parties are often underfunded and understaffed to the point where they cannot get a coherent plan together for election.

They're usually like "Climate change is bad, vote for me" and when pressed about how they intend to combat Climate Change, they have something like "By stopping Climate Change!" handy. The two major parties have such ridiculously overpowered ratios of infrastructure behind them that third parties can't gain meaningful traction.

It absolutely is self-defense. There's more violence than just physical violence. Misgendering, calling minorities slurs and harassing them, openly protesting the removal of statues that were put in place to remind said minorities that the South thinks they're less than human. These are all forms of violence.

*snip snip snip*

Uh, no. Sorry, but that is absolutely not violence by any logically defined form of the word or concept.

Those are all terrible things that should be decried, but no, they are not violence. Those things can incite violence, but are not violence in and of themselves. Classifying words as violence is a transparent excuse to justify lashing out physically instead of coming to a meaningful compromise or solution, which, by the way, is a signature of fascism itself. By your logic, I'd be morally justified in beating the shit out of Metal on account of his outspoken opposing beliefs about Christianity (I am not, nor do I want to, by the by).

The only way you'd get around that is by defining violence as harmful words and concepts that come from a defined opposing ideology only, and that is what we call a thought-crime.

[nenjin]

These are all forms of violence.

You're comparing a higher level concept of violence to literally throwing a brick at someone's face, or smashing a can of Pepsi in to it.

I get what you're saying. I don't even necessarily disagree.

But it shouldn't take much effort to understand why those forms doesn't resonate with the average person, even if they might agree with you in principle that free speech, including the freedom to be an asshole as long as you don't assault someone, can be used as a form of violence. But not one that justifies actual physical violence. And to be honest, as much as I hate the idea of people using their free speech to be a racist prick, I'm not sure I want to live in a country that polices what you say to the degree Europe does sometimes. Plenty of examples where that shit goes completely sideways in utterly absurd ways.

So, yes, even though the extent of Free Speech in this country allows people to be assholes, it does not justify random or even semi-random acts of violence. When someone spits on you, blocks you from going anywhere, throws a punch, then that's violence everyone, including the law, can and does recognize. The answer to the violence you're worried about is stronger social structures, actual organizations, rather than masked vigilantes ambushing and sucker punching people in the name of very abstract justice. There is no justice in war, just violence, and that's what this is starting to look like. And all it's doing is strengthening the opposition. Both sides thrive off of emotional highs, the sense of urgency that something must be done NOW until someone does something stupid and violent and tragic. And they're feeding each other and constantly pulling people in the sidelines in to the crowd.

There is fuck all I can do about the right since ultimately, they're not my people. But I feel like the ideology I've more or less agreed with my whole life is being hijacked by extremist psychos who honestly just want to fight, to the point I have a hard time telling them apart from the right, they're so blindly fanatical about the progressive shit they believe.