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[MetalSlimeHunt]

By your logic, I'd be morally justified in beating the shit out of Metal on account of his outspoken opposing beliefs about Christianity (I am not, nor do I want to, by the by).

Don't worry, you've got more than enough fellows who will be willing to calmly and rationally explain why filthy apostate queers like me need to executed, but of course never through some horrifying antifascist-esq mob violence, certainly not. Rule of law will serve quite well to contain and dispose of our influence. Praise be to God!

Oh by the way this recent conversation has been great amusement, thanks all. I really enjoyed the part where nenjin and Dunamisdeos civility-ed themselves into agreeing with the neo-Nazi perspective on the Charlottesville terrorist. If only those poor Nazis could have seen that the Democrats can drug test degenerates and cut taxes too, maybe we'd finally Heal The Divide. #OrangeManBad

Also antifascism is always good, thank you for shopping at Wal-Mart.

[nenjin]

Oh do tell. I'm sure it boils down to "my way is the only viable way forward, ergo, you're a fascist if you disagree." And we were doing so well on the smugness up until this point.

[Naturegirl1999]

By your logic, I'd be morally justified in beating the shit out of Metal on account of his outspoken opposing beliefs about Christianity (I am not, nor do I want to, by the by).

Don't worry, you've got more than enough fellows who will be willing to calmly and rationally explain why filthy apostate queers like me need to executed, but of course never through some horrifying antifascist-esq mob violence, certainly not. Rule of law will serve quite well to contain and dispose of our influence. Praise be to God!

Oh by the way this recent conversation has been great amusement, thanks all. I really enjoyed the part where nenjin and Dunamisdeos civility-ed themselves into agreeing with the neo-Nazi perspective on the Charlottesville terrorist. If only those poor Nazis could have seen that the Democrats can drug test degenerates and cut taxes too, maybe we'd finally Heal The Divide. #OrangeManBad

Also antifascism is always good, thank you for shopping at Wal-Mart.

What? They aren’t saying Neo Nazis are good, they are saying that Neo Nazis and Antifa are both seekers of violence. There is a difference

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Random chime in- this discussion is great and is very civil. Keep it up! You all are doing great.

C'mon, so close. We can get through this conversation, even if MetalSlimeHunt wants to instigate.

The funny thing is that there's not actually any discursive difference between civility and trolling if you really think about it. In both cases you constrain the outcome from the outset and fail to make a true consideration.

For example, if rioting and tearing down Nazi scum actually is outside of your self-conception of politics the solution to Nazi terrorism and a sympathetic government, it's impossible to reach that conclusion when you commit yourself to civility. You keep the training wheels of politics on by believing in state-sanctioned positions, which is easy to do since the majority of the population has been trained to accept such positions. Even Republicans for all their apocalyptic rhetoric never actually get moved by widely acceptable positions that are against them. Their response to that sort of thing is just to cheat on the procedural level ala Redmap. It's only when people step outside of that box that they begin to panic, which is the common thread between antifascism, criticism of Israel's apartheid, antinationalism, etc that has gotten them so amped up as of late.

So actually, you're doing a disservice to truth by adopting civility. Politics is not a religion.

[Gentlefish]

By your logic, I'd be morally justified in beating the shit out of Metal on account of his outspoken opposing beliefs about Christianity (I am not, nor do I want to, by the by).

See, there's a major disconnect here.

Christianity doesn't, by nature, call for genocide of undesirables. It is not necessarily moral to oppose Christendom. (I'm also Christian, but think the hierarchy of the church should be abolished. That's a topic for another time though.)

Fascism, by its nature, is a threat to even Capitalist society. It wants to purge everyone who isn't of a narrow view that shrinks with every elimination of a minority. It is necessarily moral to oppose fascism for the greater good of society.

I'd really rather not get this thread locked, either. We're discussing a volatile subject without ad-homming. We can get heated so long we're not attacking each other.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Right, but I'm doing so in reference to this thread getting locked and people getting banned, rather than a bigger-picture thing. Stuff might be falling apart out there, but it doesn't have to fall apart here too.

For reference, see my earlier points on the game-theoretic basis for the current situation- I don't disagree with you, in the political sphere.

Once the Nash equilibrium falls in the iterated prisoner's dilemma and antagonistic actions become the way to go, the only way to restore cooperation is for one side to cease existing, a third party intervenes, or both sides reach an impasse where further antagonistic action would be too harmful to themselves (as they see it) to justify.

There's no getting out of this by telling people to "be reasonable". In a game-theoretic sense, this is the optimal play.

Hopefully that impasse comes sooner rather than later.

If that's what you really think then just don't post about antifascism if you're going to default to a position that plays into Nazi rhetoric in the name of not getting banned. That's just plainly ridiculous, and unfortunately is why internet Nazis are so keen to talk to anyone who will listen, which is why they've all but conquered the stupid nerds in the LessWrong/rationalist blog sphere because they're committed to so much civil discussion beyond anything else.

Your game theory doesn't account for the value of favorable hostile outcome (no genocide), the likelihood of cooperation (it's effectively zero), or the relative resilience of opposing sides (Nazis have to be protected by cops to sustain themselves).

[Lord Shonus]

If that's what you really think then just don't post about antifascism if you're going to default to a position that plays into Nazi rhetoric in the name of not getting banned. That's just plainly ridiculous, and unfortunately is why internet Nazis are so keen to talk to anyone who will listen, which is why they've all but conquered the stupid nerds in the LessWrong/rationalist blog sphere because they're committed to so much civil discussion beyond anything else.

LessWrong is literally a "Come here, let me brainwash you into joining my fake-science cult!" recruitment tool, and most "rationalists" aren't much better. Absorbing them into Facisct thought patterns isn't much more impressive than teaching a cat to kill mice.

[SalmonGod]

It is self-defense. 

The USA is literally running concentration camps.  Legal citizens are being actively stripped of their citizenship and their passports revoked or denied renewal because of things like.... speaking spanish to each other.  People are being deported to countries where they are most certainly going to die, and, predictably, they are dying.  My wife knows somebody who is going to be deported to Bangladesh in a month, where he will be killed because he is an atheist.  He fled to the USA for political asylum, but the very institution of political asylum is being shut down and dismantled under fascist rhetoric.  Most of these things are illegal, but they're being carried out by law enforcement institutions.  Because guess what.  Fascists infiltrated our law enforcement institutions.  And this was happening long before anybody ever heard of antifa.  We ignored them then.  Gave them their "marketplace of ideas".  Can anybody seriously tell me why I'm supposed to believe this was a good thing?  Murders of trans people are up.  White nationalist terror attacks are on the rise.  This isn't leftist dogmatic intolerance spinning out into hysteria because somebody disagrees with them.  These are things that are happening.

But yeah....... it's just ridiculous to claim that self-defense has anything to do with antifa's activities.  Nobody's engaging in violence until antifa instigates it.  They're retroactively responsible for the rise of fascism in the USA that was happening, as I pointed out, before anybody'd ever used the term antifa.  And trying to point out how political speech can be violent is invoking "higher forms of violence" that just can't be compared to a brick to the face.  "Civil" respect for free speech and the law (as it murders people) are far preferable to scary mob stuff.

Philosophy Tube - Philosophy of Antifa

I know I'm going to be seen as hysterical here for saying a lot of emotional scary stuff, I guess.  But... it's all rather true and happening.  I'm not going to pussyfoot around describing the real things that are happening because they sound hyperbolic, because we've been culturally indoctrinated into a chronological snobbery that makes us feel like "such a thing couldn't possibly happen again -- MY door isn't being kicked in, so it can't possibly be as bad as those stories I was told growing up about other people's doors getting kicked in".  Sorry to break it to you, but never again is now.  Political self-defense isn't the same as self-defense against a random mugging.  When the hammers batter down your door, you're already fucked.  You're not going to fisticuff your way out of the full weight of a political institution that has decided to illegalize your existence.

[hector13]

I think he means that, in the face of a group whose very definition necessitates the violent removal of people who aren’t them, civility is not an effective tool.

Eh, ninja’d, but eh.

[nenjin]

civility has been co-opted by our enemies

The idea that civil discourse helps preserve the status quo, and prevents them from facing any consequences. There's a degree of truth there. El Presidente is the example, he can say what he wants and no matter how outrageous it is, no one really feels like they can speak their mind because we, unlike him, are still constrained by civility.

MSH has just opted for the apocalyptic vision of the next few years. The idea that shit has to get its absolute worst before something changes. It happens to Christians periodically. But this is 2019. Why should they get to have all the fun?

Political self-defense isn't the same as self-defense against a random mugging.  When the hammers batter down your door, you're already fucked.  You're not going to fisticuff your way out of the full weight of a political institution that has decided to illegalize your existence.

How is jacking some 20 something idiot in the streets going to change that? Like they're gonna feel that all the way up in Washington? "Oh shit, they're hitting people in the streets. Maybe we should rethink this whole "extra-legal banishment of Mexicans" thing." As though the Trump administration would respond to unrest in the streets the way we expect a typically western government to respond.

By your own description, we're already well past that point anways. So what does the violence actually solve? What does it change? What is the point? I'm going to argue that it has no point, other than as an expression of impotent rage at the changing of the tides. Since actual revolution is too risky....might as well go in to the streets and slake my bloodlust instead. If we're all going to lose our rights, I might as well fuck someone up while I can. Why would I cheer that on? If it's "all pointless" anyways, then yes, I'd rather save my fisticuffs for my front door. The alternative is being dead, crippled or in jail going "I told ye they'd be barcoding us all by 2024."

The violence doesn't help. I'd have more respect for Antifa if they'd actually apply violence in a meaningful way. Like I dunno, breaking people out of detention centers. Instead it's a bunch of edgy, violent weekend extremists, and they're making the Left look even more like shit, and the feeding our troll president's furnaces and I'm tired of it.

[SalmonGod]

You're comparing a higher level concept of violence to literally throwing a brick at someone's face, or smashing a can of Pepsi in to it.

When someone spits on you, blocks you from going anywhere, throws a punch, then that's violence everyone, including the law, can and does recognize.

Also, like.... you do realize you wrote these two sentences in the same post, right?

[Gentlefish]

Spoiler: Paradox of Tolerance (click to show/hide)

[img=http://wy3mg1xgify37n21x223cw7xl1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/HcuZIT5w8xJLMXoISDexG1GNz5Dj7xHO_QGeueMtdPU.jpg][/img]

More reading!

This is why fascists lean on civility so hard. It's not out of any respect from the system. It's because they know they can get away with it and abuse the system to get into power. Then use that power to eliminate the tolerant.

Point: The Hong Kong protests are antifa. Literally antifascist action. They assault police officers and block major roads and transportation systems. The fights are so prolonged and continuous because their government took things too far.

We haven't yet seen our government reach that far. I'd rather like that to not be the case. Antifa now likely means less fascism down the line as they're forced back into hiding. Especially after this president gets elected out and the damage he's done gets fixed.

[wierd]

I am wary of antifa, but I dont really see a valid alternative without law enforcement and government doing a sharp about-face, and mending its ways.


Things like antifa can go sour very fast, and when they do, they just fuel the "need" (ahem) for things like the illegal deportations. (because it gives examples for fear mongering rhetoric spouting asshats in government to point to, to inflame the tensions in society, and further escalate the problems.)

[nenjin]

You're comparing a higher level concept of violence to literally throwing a brick at someone's face, or smashing a can of Pepsi in to it.

When someone spits on you, blocks you from going anywhere, throws a punch, then that's violence everyone, including the law, can and does recognize.

Also, like.... you do realize you wrote these two sentences in the same post, right?

I guess I'm too slow to see your point, so I guess I'll just be deliberate. You're arguing a sociological definition of violence against the very real, very immediate physical act of violence. I merely listed what's actual constituted as a crime, because at the end of the day that's what people AND the law will respond to. I'll be blunt: the sociological definition of alternative forms of violence is something I understand, and agree with. But there are plenty of people who would call that "pussy liberal bullshit" at worst, the extension of PC and victimization culture which, let's be real, a good portion of the US population is sick of hearing about. It's not an argument that works for a lot of people, even though if they saw it or experienced it in their own lives it would sicken them. What I listed is the kinds of things someone on the street might do that are actual crimes that they can get arrested for, which you can't really argue with. Spitting on someone is assault. Blocking them is imprisonment. Striking is obviously assault too. That's the level of harassment is that unequivocally actionable. What you're talking about is much harder to action, or even prove. So to bring it full circle again, it's not the kind of violence that I think warrants or necessitates what Antifa likes to do with their time.

In regards to neo-Nazis and such, the logic still holds- if they've abandoned civility, there's no benefit to embracing it for your own group- that way lies self-annihilation. If they go aggressive when your side is civil, why delude yourself into thinking that they won't keep going aggressive if you attempt to go back to civil (under the presumption that overall, neo-Nazis were the instigators)? Of course, once you stake out that position, there are ramifications.

It really comes down to this: do you still believe this too shall pass, or are you ascribing to a new future where this is the new norm? Has Trump managed to shatter America so that we're all ready to start acting like barbarians, or is his presidency eventually going to be over and things will change and shift yet again. I'm not giving in to hysteria, or doom or any of that. This country isn't broken. People are just completely pissed off about everything, and this is how we're handling it. We've got a tinpot wanna be dictator who is testing out the limits of his loathsome authority, and the people under him are too worried about re-election to actually stand up for what's right. I'll continue to believe things will change, because if we are totally fucked, I don't want to spend my time from now until then being bitter, paranoid and hateful. If I'm going to be screwed, I'd rather be a screwed optimist than a screwed pessimist. I'm acting as though there is a day after Trump we still have to address, and I'd like to be able to look myself in the mirror when it arrives.

[wierd]

Trumpist America has always been there, simmering with the pot-lid bolted down.

Trump just let the lid off, and naturally, a steam of foul gas has escaped and filled all available volume.  It is wrong to think that these kinds of thoughts and beliefs were gone from our country; Thoughts and beliefs like these never actually die.  They just go into remission.

There's a reason why the phrase says "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance" .

Trump and Co have platformed nationalism in general, because it was a powerful vehicle that nobody was driving (and for good reason), and it has gotten him into high office.  Now we are dealing with the consequences.  America was always broken, just with band-aids and sutures on all its wounds.  Now we have ripped open and bloody gashes instead.