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[SalmonGod]

Yeah, I know.  The timing of your comment was just comedic to me.

But also... this image really isn't all that a-typical of antifa counter-protesters.  The only thing notable about it is the picturesque framing of the 3 front and center, unmasked.  Disabled people and children aren't even that uncommon. 

Your point was trying to frame them as "violence hobbyists".  Pay attention to the body language of these people.  Or any picture of a group of antifa where they are not immediately engaged in direct confrontation.  Aside from the big black guy, they do not look like people who are there wanting a fight.  They look like they're ready and accepting that it's what they're there for, but not really enthusiastic about it.  There's no aggression in the way they're standing around.  Or in most pictures of antifa.

Compare to pictures of alt-right people at their gatherings.  They almost always look angry, aggressive, poised and ready to clash.

Or you could like.... compare data on who the perpetrators are of actual verified instances of violence and their severity.  Or even read alt-right event planning chat logs, because plenty of them have been leaked.  They pretty openly talk about their desire for violence and how to control the narrative so they can go at it and still appear sympathetic.

[sluissa]

There's also every reason to believe that, in the absence of a real Antifa, the actual fascists would have simply invented one; they believe so thoroughly in Qanon, the deep state, and various forms of shadowy "globalist" conspiracy that to add one more would not tax them particularly, and they need an opponent they can physically hurt, or at least imagine hurting, in order for their power fantasies to be violent enough to motivate them.

Remember, these people have been told, and readily believed, that every mass shooting was a false flag operation, every Democratic victory the product of voter fraud, every mention of diversity a precursor to white genocide. What could Antifa possibly do that would be worse than what they'd be assumed to be doing?

This will always be true, but there's a difference between a nutjob conspiracy theory with no backing that grabs a few followers and a video of a fight that makes national news and reaches millions of eyes. The simple act of fighting against them is giving them more attention, and more sympathetic eyes than they'd ever have just marching and shouting.

[Reelya]

Also, it doesn't take too many bad examples to start people questioning Antifa's motives and methods. For example, some antifa activists beat up a Democrat / Bernie supporter because he had an American flag, and kept calling it a fascist symbol.
https://www.newsweek.com/antifa-violence-portland-bernie-sanders-video-1082072\
Also, be sure to beat up some Jewish guys who happen to be walking past, while calling them Nazis. Big problem with "punch a nazi week" is when you've agigited people who can't actually tell what a Nazi is.

I mean, if you call the American flag a fascist symbol, you might have a point, but it's still not going to win you many fans outside a small contingent.

[smjjames]

Tell that to the banana musicians and senior citizens who scared away the proud boys in oregon. I don't think they were throwing too many punches out there. Even the actual fight-ready kinds of antifa advise eachother *not* to bring or carry weapons, while the facists give eachother advice on what kinds of weapons are difficult to complain about (Heavy duty flagpoles and shields, mostly. They show up again and again and again with similar gear.) although half the time they're just decked out in guns.

Antifa isn't composed of rowdy idiots looking for fights, there's no way that's consistent with the vast majority of their actions.

'Banana musicians'?

Also, it doesn't take too many bad examples to start people questioning Antifa's motives and methods. For example, some antifa activists beat up a Democrat / Bernie supporter because he had an American flag, and kept calling it a fascist symbol.
https://www.newsweek.com/antifa-violence-portland-bernie-sanders-video-1082072\
Also, be sure to beat up some Jewish guys who happen to be walking past, while calling them Nazis. Big problem with "punch a nazi week" is when you've agigited people who can't actually tell what a Nazi is.

I mean, if you call the American flag a fascist symbol, you might have a point, but it's still not going to win you many fans outside a small contingent.

There's also the case where they attacked an asian-american (or he was latino? I forget, but he wasn't white) journalist who just happened to be conservative and was extremely likely to not be aligned with the real fascists.

While it's true that there's always going to be bad actors in any particular group, when it starts happening semi-regularily, it starts looking like it's more than just a few bad actors.

[Frumple]

There was a group of folks dressed up as bananas disrupting one of the recent fash demonstrations with loudly played music. Had a good chunk of a brass band on banana display, iirc.

[Max™]

I mean, ideally non-violent solutions would be pursued vigorously by all, but until antifa dudes start running over crowds or shooting up rallies I'm kinda like, yeah, there are violent assholes on both sides, but some I'm sure are goddamn neonazis so fuck those cunts.

[Egan_BW]

no no, you're supposed to say fine people

[nenjin]

I mean, ideally non-violent solutions would be pursued vigorously by all, but until antifa dudes start running over crowds or shooting up rallies I'm kinda like, yeah, there are violent assholes on both sides, but some I'm sure are goddamn neonazis so fuck those cunts.

Sorry, I don't think they need to rise to the level of plowing into crowds with their cars to be considered a problem. Randomly attacking strangers on the street just based on what you think their politics are is just as bad. It's exactly the same kind of shit the violent right does. That kind of rabid dog shit feeds the violent right, makes average people just that more afraid of everyone, and honestly it's just an excuse for violence for violence's sake with a political justification.

[Frumple]

I mean, it's not actually just as bad by a hefty goddamn margin since, y'know, they haven't fucking murdered people. It's maybe a concern but it's not bloody nearly an equal one.

[Lord Shonus]

There's also the case where they attacked an asian-american (or he was latino? I forget, but he wasn't white) journalist who just happened to be conservative and was extremely likely to not be aligned with the real fascists.

Andy Ngo is the journalist in question, but it is far less clear-cut than it might seem. Not only has he been accused of deliberately falsifying stories to feed far-right hysteria, his critics almost always become, by some strange coincidence, direct personal targets of openly fascict organizations.

[nenjin]

I mean, it's not actually just as bad by a hefty goddamn margin since, y'know, they haven't fucking murdered people. It's maybe a concern but it's not bloody nearly an equal one.

Murder is murder. We already have laws to deal with that. What's less clear cut is assaulting people during rallies because of your perception of their politics and someone going "Oh well at least they didn't murder someone." We already know murder is bad. Downplaying other foul behavior because it's not as bad as it could possibly is a mistake.

[Frumple]

Trying to equate significantly worse behavior to it isn't exactly well decided, either. It can be foul behavior but it's not nearly as fucking foul as what fash shits and their friends have been getting up to.

Even if some of what antifa types have being doing ain't right, saying it's on par with what american rightwingers have been doing is rank bullshit.

[nenjin]

Assaulting people at random in the street isn't hitting them with cars.

But you know what it's exactly like?

Assaulting people on the street because of their race, creed or color. The exact thing the right was pilloried for for decades, during the Civil Rights era and just about at any other time in American history.

So when Antifa does it, and they're arguably even less discriminate, what? We should just overlook that because somewhere some conversative psychopath has done worse? I get people want to take the focus off of Antifa because The Big Orange has them in his sights. But just because Trump doesn't like something that is legitimately bad doesn't mean it should get a pass. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[PTTG??]

Talking about antifa like it's a problem is like talking about dog-lovers like they're a problem. Yes, some people who call themselves dog-lovers have unleashed trained attack pitbulls they take to dog parks. Other dog-lovers actually care for dogs and train them well and in general are great people. There's no chief dog-lover who decides who gets to use the name or not.

And yeah, Andy Ngo is a nazi scumbag too. He deserved everything he got.

Wait, hold on, I just re-read that. Assaulting Nazis and their supporters is actively preventing more violence. Taking it out of context is like saying that the Allies murdered thousands of German beach-goers on June 6th, 1944.

[McTraveller]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Clocks have more failure modes than "incorrect rate of passage of time."

I'll leave the application of this fact as an exercise for the readers.