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[Enemy post]

Flat Earthers don't deserve hostile rhetoric (though I can see where the flat out headdeskery would frustrate some to no end), but as hector said, white nationalism/nazism/neo-nazism is something that absolutely has to be confronted. I'm not sure how you confront something like that while being compassionate and loving at the same time. Unless maybe you don't confront it, but does that even work?

Daryl Davis was able to to do it.

[scriver]

Flat Earthers don't deserve hostile rhetoric (though I can see where the flat out headdeskery would frustrate some to no end), but as hector said, white nationalism/nazism/neo-nazism is something that absolutely has to be confronted. I'm not sure how you confront something like that while being compassionate and loving at the same time. Unless maybe you don't confront it, but does that even work?

Daryl Davis was able to to do it.

Let's not listen to the coloured folks though, white 20-something college students know better

[Il Palazzo]

Flat Earthers don't deserve hostile rhetoric (though I can see where the flat out headdeskery would frustrate some to no end), but as hector said, white nationalism/nazism/neo-nazism is something that absolutely has to be confronted. I'm not sure how you confront something like that while being compassionate and loving at the same time. Unless maybe you don't confront it, but does that even work?

Daryl Davis was able to to do it.

Also worth mentioning is the Life After Hate organisation.

[Max™]

While I am aware that nobody was directly saying "let's just ignore the nazis and they'll go away" we did kinda try to ignore the ones over there while we were over here in the states, figuring that they'd stick to the kind of white supremacy that america was built on: simply keeping everybody but white men down.

When they starting actively expanding and putting people in camps it got enough attention that somebody had to do something and punching nazis is always a worthwhile something, so we have to do that.

[RazielReaver]

You're utterly idiotic if you think the nazis were white supremacists. What with wanting to purge slavs and such. The Nazis believed in the supremacy of the germanic descended people. They also quite loved muslims, seeing as how they housed the Ayatollah of Persia for quite a bit of time.

[sluissa]

Also the specific reasons for America getting into the war were a bit less clear cut than that. The US was supporting European countries against Germany in the forms of supply shipments, convoy defense, and troops stationed in non-conflict areas that allowed countries like Britain to move their troops where needed. This support was mostly because they expected the war to come to the US eventually if it couldn't be stopped in Europe. The final straw that caused war wasn't anything to do with the holocaust either. It was Japan bombing Pearl Harbor, and the fact that Japan and Germany were allies. Japan dragged Germany into the war with the US.

Certainly the holocaust made good propaganda fodder, and was easily used as an after the fact reasoning for the war, but at the time, it was never going to be the sole reason for a war against Germany.

[Max™]

I know what nazis were back in the day, just like I know what they are over here now, but like you said, until Japan actually forced our hand the US wasn't as concerned about direct intervention. Certainly isn't taught that way over here in schools which make it look like Hitler started offing jews and whatnot so we jumped to action to right wrongs and whatnot.

Setting aside a bit of sarcastic framing, we basically ignored a bunch of nazis doing nazi shit until their friend kicked us in the shins, history doesn't suggest that ignoring nazis who want to do nazi shit works very well, seems like it might not be the best solution for the neo-nazi infection we're now suffering from now.

[sluissa]

And there's still a big difference between a couple hundred idiots marching with dollar store tiki torches, and tanks rolling through Belgium.

One can be safely ignored. I'll let you figure out which.

Attacking them, giving them credible evidence for their propaganda to build off of, that's how it escalates.

Charlottesville is still viewed through two very different lenses. (And a third that's starting to show up that's more neutral to both sides, but anti-government/cop, blaming the government for mishandling the separation of the two sides.)

The left sees a woman murdered by nazis. The right sees a group of fascists(yes, fascists... that's how antifa is viewed by the right) infringing on their free speech and the violence being a side effect of their side being attacked.

There's no middle ground there because both sides view themselves as on the defense and can point to moments of real violence. It's a little bit harder to claim that ground when there's no opposing side paying attention, no blood spilt.

Let the trees fall in their empty forest, they bother nobody.

[Gentlefish]

The whole point of "attacking" them (favorite weapons including eggs and milkshakes) is not to cow them into submission.

It's to make them afraid to stick their heads up. To prevent them from controlling the dialogue.

Say what you will about antifa, they wouldn't exist if the KKK and fascists weren't publicly marching down the main streets of america.

One group exists to literally advocate for the removal of all minorities. The other exists to shut them down. It's self-defensive action. Fight fire with fire, meet them in kind, et cetera.

As to Charlottesville, they were protesting the removal of a monument to the oppression of African-Americans (The statue was likely erected in the 1960's, the height of the civil rights movement), and then killed someone during this time.

Yes, initiating actual violence against them is a bad idea. Especially when they attend pride rallies openly carrying their arsenals. But to embarrass them out of the public view? That's a good thing. Notice that every time an event like this happens, it gets covered less sensationally. They had to play up the last "big" event by lying about the contents of the milkshakes.

I'd really rather Antifa not have a reason to exist, but that's because it means there's no fascists left.

[SalmonGod]

The left sees a woman murdered by nazis. The right sees a group of fascists(yes, fascists... that's how antifa is viewed by the right) infringing on their free speech and the violence being a side effect of their side being attacked.

Yeah, sorry, but one side is just plain factually wrong there on multiple levels.  And if they see the violence as a "side effect", then they're siding with the fascists.  And it's abusive as fuck.

Imagine a man threatening to beat his wife.  He had beaten her before long in the past, but behaved himself for 20 years since.  His wife reports this threat to authorities and makes it clear to her husband that even though it was only words, she won't stand for being terrorized in her own home again.  In response, the man actually beats his wife.  Authorities show up.  Man tells authorities that his free speech was under attack, the beating she received was a side effect of her own behavior, and the only way to prevent him from regressing into his old self is to ignore him.  See what that argument looks like?

[Trekkin]

There's also every reason to believe that, in the absence of a real Antifa, the actual fascists would have simply invented one; they believe so thoroughly in Qanon, the deep state, and various forms of shadowy "globalist" conspiracy that to add one more would not tax them particularly, and they need an opponent they can physically hurt, or at least imagine hurting, in order for their power fantasies to be violent enough to motivate them.

Remember, these people have been told, and readily believed, that every mass shooting was a false flag operation, every Democratic victory the product of voter fraud, every mention of diversity a precursor to white genocide. What could Antifa possibly do that would be worse than what they'd be assumed to be doing?

[scriver]

I'd really rather Antifa not have a reason to exist, but that's because it means there's no fascists left.

Nah, man. There'll always be another fascist. Antifa and the TikiTackyNazis are the same in that way. They'll invent enemies if no enemy presents themselves. They're just violent people who want to hurt other people.

I've said it before. While I don't have any proof of the matter, if bet my arse that if you could compare these people with other "violence hobbyist" groups such as supporter hooligans (or just the kind of people who go out and get drunk and beat people up Friday nights) you'd find people of both these camps there, probably getting along just fine as long as the "enemy" is another supporter group.

[The Ensorceler]

Tell that to the banana musicians and senior citizens who scared away the proud boys in oregon. I don't think they were throwing too many punches out there. Even the actual fight-ready kinds of antifa advise eachother *not* to bring or carry weapons, while the facists give eachother advice on what kinds of weapons are difficult to complain about (Heavy duty flagpoles and shields, mostly. They show up again and again and again with similar gear.) although half the time they're just decked out in guns.

Antifa isn't composed of rowdy idiots looking for fights, there's no way that's consistent with the vast majority of their actions.

[SalmonGod]

I've said it before. While I don't have any proof of the matter, if bet my arse that if you could compare these people with other "violence hobbyist" groups such as supporter hooligans (or just the kind of people who go out and get drunk and beat people up Friday nights) you'd find people of both these camps there, probably getting along just fine as long as the "enemy" is another supporter group.

It's hilarious that you're saying this at a time when the alt-right is passing this picture around as representative of antifa.



They sure look like a crowd who pursue violence as a hobby.

[scriver]

You could say the same about any number of pictures of ugly and geeky alt-righters that is chosen to ridicule and emasculate them. Muscle atrophied, chin deficient rednecks don't exactly paint a picture of a dangerous Nazi vandals either but in those cases it's not about making people worry about the enemy, it's about ridiculing and othering them and strengthening the bonds of the in-group -- "look how ugly they are, we are so much better than them".

That picture works particularly well for the alt-right since the only potent man in it's foreground is a blackish guy which appeals to their race-/-masculinity complex.